sweep

from a feminist perspective, I find it interesting and entertaining, not only unto myself, but I hope that others can appreciate my observations. I'm no man hater but, I am cynical when it comes to motives.

IMO, cocksucking is worship: when I go down on my lover I am performing an act of worship, so I am drawing a parallel between sex and religion, which does have patriachal undertones, don't you think?

Talulah

HAHAHA

Indeed, though I must admit, my partner is a lot more worthy of worship than God. Not to mention the right sex.

Bree

You must be going to the wrong church - or at least a church that somehow ignores the Pauline scriptures and the Old Testament, at large. You can't get away from it: the Bible spells it out, in black-and-white, what must be done if a man is found lying with another man as a man lies with a woman (can't the Bible ever speak in plain English, LOL).

Talulah

I don't believe it Bree.

I was in church all my life and I heard plenty of 'dislike' (a mild term) for homosexuals.

Spurly,

What the hell do you think, 'I wouldn't let my child's innocence be ruined by being around a homosexual" is? Love, kindness, acceptance?

No, it is prejudice and dislike, much akin to hatred.

Gregg

I'm thinking I wish you were my wife.

Gregg

spurly

I'll try this one more time. I love all people. I love democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives, people of all races and national origins, people of all economic classes, and people of all sexual preferences.

As a minister, I am constantly teaching students to do the same thing. However, just because I love someone doesn't mean that I will pat them on the back and say that everything they are doing is all right. Does that mean that I hate them? No. I can love people who do things that are immoral. I can love people who take life. I can love people who steal. I can love people who are not honest. I can love people who have a sexual preference that goes against the revealed will of God.

I wish I could meet you in person. You would see that there is no hatred in me toward anyone. If I don't want someone who is doing something immoral to be a role model for my son or daughter, that does not mean that I will not treat them with love and respect.

Again, a forum like this is limited because you can not see my body language, my facial expressions, or hear the tone of my voice. If you could, you would have a different opinion of me, I'm sure.

Kevin

spurly

There is a big difference between teaching that homosexuality is a sin, and teaching people to hate homosexuals. It is as different as east is from west.

Gregg

To tell you the truth, Kevin, this just disturbs me even more. That you can be so kind and gentle as you say, and yet cling to such an irrational attitude toward homosexuality.

If you truly, honestly love gay people, then you would not base your opinion of their sexual preferences and activities on a book of myths, legends, poems, songs, and prophetic/apocalyptic writings written over 2,000 years ago by a pre-scientific culture. A book that encourages slavery and commands parents to stone their disrespectful children to death, among other things.

You would listen to what THEY have to say. You would carefully study the latest scientific research. You would ask yourself, "Is there really anything intrinsically immoral about a sexual preference, as long as it's directed toward other, consenting adults?" You would ask yourself if homosexuality really belongs in the same category as murder, theft and dishonesty. You would apply the same standards of morality to homosexuals that you apply to heterosexuals when deciding if they can be good role models for your children. And you would be understanding if many homosexuals don't meet those standards--when you're taught from puberty that your sexual preference is "immoral" and something to be ashamed of, chances are you may have challenges expressing your sexuality in positive and healthy ways.

I'm sorry, I just can't buy this love you're talking about. A person who loves tries to understand. You haven't tried. The Bible tells you all you need to know--it's immoral, case closed, discussion over, nothing more to say. No amount of Christian "love and compassion" can gloss over the fact that you've chosen ignorance over knowledge and understanding. You can disagree with what the Bible says about slavery, but you can't disagree with what it says about gays. You claim to live by love and grace but you are still bound to the Law, still choosing living by fossilized rules over doing what's right.

I'm not even gay, but I feel no love here.

Gregg

Gregg

No, Kevin. It is not. It may seem so to you, but it is not to those who hear it.

You are telling people that what they are, their very identity, their very being, is sinful. When it comes to homosexuality, you cannot "love the sinner but hate the sin." What the gay person hears is that he or she IS the sin. How do I know this? Simple. I just turn it around and imagine that someone has told me that my heterosexuality is a sin. Since I cannot separate myself from my heterosexuality, this means that I am not merely a sinner, but that I am sin itself.

In a way, what you are doing in your loving, kind, gentle way, is worse than what Fred Phelps and his "God Hates Fags" Westboro Baptist Church does. You are teaching people an "acceptable" way of maintaining an irrational, unsupportable prejudice. You are so lovingly, so calmly and reasonably, teaching a lie.

Gregg

spurly

Gregg,

Because you and I are coming to this subject (and many others) with conflicting world views, we will have to walk away and say - I didn't agree with what Gregg (or Kevin) said, but I love him anyway.

I think one of the main mountains between us is that we do see life so differently. I see it as a gift from God, you see it as a product of natural origin. Because of this basic difference, almost every subject we can think of is affected. What I see as love, you see as hate. What you see as love, I see as not very loving (i.e., just accepting people and whatever they are doing because that's who they are, and if that is what they are doing, it's okay). The most loving thing to do, from my world view, is to point them back to the one who loves them more than anyone else ever could, and that is God.

If I saw a child running through the house with a sharp knife, I would try to lovingly take the knife away from them so that they would not get hurt. Why? Because I see the danger for themselves in what they are doing. Would I berate the child for doing that? No, they are only a child. But I would lovingly point them to a more excellent way.

That's the same way I view any sin. Whether it be in my life or someone else's. That sin has negative consequences. Because I love them, and I want what is best for them, I would lovingly try to show them God's best plan for living. Would I berate them? No. One of my themes in ministry has always been, "love them until they ask you why". It's what I am called to do.

I hope you understand.

Kevin