Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Soul Invictus · 02-04-2003, 06:22 PM

This post was initially posted in Bib/crit and I was advised by a moderator that I may get a better response in this forum, so here goes! I'm told that the website in my post has the timelines wrong as well as the points of origins. If anyone could share some sources in my quest to get a better account of Biblical vs historical timelines also, I'd be ever so grateful!:

I think there was a post a while back stating the historicity of Alexander the Great was more than that for Jesus... That's what sparked my post. We always here about the great ancient kings of Egypt, like Thutmose and Akenhaten. Personally I've never studied enough to know the sources for this, however I'm sure it would like in the hieroglyphics.. One good thing about the Egyptians., they valued written record. What I want to know is that of the more popular Biblical characters, such as Abraham, Moses, Kings David and Solomon, is there any textual script to support the existence of these characters, outside of your KJV? I''m not well versed on any of the original Bibles of Hebrew of what not, but what I want to know is that is the Bible our sole source for information on these characters?

There are historical records on Plato, and Aristotle, and Constantine the Great, correct? Well is there anything to corroborate the existence of these characters? Another thing, - the lineages of man have been attributed to Noah's 3 nations idea....for his 3 sons. Is there any historical reference to him as well, and in the scientific community I found this
So I was wondering to what extent in the scientific community (dispite the link I provided) is the idea of Noah being important to the geneaology of mankind prevalent. If he is deemed critical, then he has to be accepted as having existed, (which I was wondering is there an outside source for)

I understand the Bible is going to have a portion of truth as well as it's portion of fancy. I'm wondering where the characters we're presented with lie?

***Final point***
How historically correct are events in the Bible that have been corroborated?
An example I'm referring to is the enslavement of Egyptians during the Moses era. I had questions about how the Egyptians are portrayed in the Bible vs that from what history shows us. I was watching a program about the Great Pyramids, and two scholars balked at the idea that the Egyptians operated a slave system (in a modern European sense) to create the Pyramids. They went on to explain that the workers would have been proud to have worked on a burial palace for the king. The Bible speaks of King Nebuchadnezzar as well, and vilifies him. Was he as evil a king as portrayed? What other errant portrayals of events are there? Is there any balance portrayals in the Bible? Also, there's no evidence of a great flood, right?

I think you all get the jist!

Invictus

Jobar · 02-04-2003, 06:52 PM

Invictus, you say that the BC&A mods sent you here? I am at a loss as to why- as far as I can tell, the only part of your post which is even close to our usual topics is

Another thing, - the lineages of man have been attributed to Noah's 3 nations idea....for his 3 sons. Is there any historical reference to him as well, and in the scientific community I found this
So I was wondering to what extent in the scientific community (dispite the link I provided) is the idea of Noah being important to the geneaology of mankind prevalent. If he is deemed critical, then he has to be accepted as having existed, (which I was wondering is there an outside source for)

(And you need to add the link you mentioned.)

I suggest that you break this up into 2 posts- one consisting of the above, and the other to go to BC&A, or perhaps General Religion Discussions.

If any of our regulars here have anything to say about the genetic problems which would result if all humanity was descended from the few on the Ark, go ahead. But the rest is not appropriate to this forum.

Soul Invictus · 02-04-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
Invictus, you say that the BC&A mods sent you here? I am at a loss as to why- as far as I can tell, the only part of your post which is even close to our usual topics is

Another thing, - the lineages of man have been attributed to Noah's 3 nations idea....for his 3 sons. Is there any historical reference to him as well, and in the scientific community I found this
So I was wondering to what extent in the scientific community (dispite the link I provided) is the idea of Noah being important to the geneaology of mankind prevalent. If he is deemed critical, then he has to be accepted as having existed, (which I was wondering is there an outside source for)

(And you need to add the link you mentioned.)

I suggest that you break this up into 2 posts- one consisting of the above, and the other to go to BC&A, or perhaps General Religion Discussions.

If any of our regulars here have anything to say about the genetic problems which would result if all humanity was descended from the few on the Ark, go ahead. But the rest is not appropriate to this forum.

the link is http://www.osterholm.info/man/

tell me what you think

Doubting Didymus · 02-04-2003, 07:02 PM

I gather you're after the standard "why the entire human race could not be descended from the arkers" speil. Thats not my thing, but just to clarify: is that what you're looking for?

Soul Invictus · 02-04-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
I gather you're after the standard "why the entire human race could not be descended from the arkers" speil. Thats not my thing, but just to clarify: is that what you're looking for?

I know I may write a bit convoluted but I'll try to explain it better.

I've read a lot of info that assumes the Noah account as the determinant. (I'm a novice in anthro affairs)

I'm looking for more info on the account of human civilizations...the Noah account is a bit much for me. Aren't the Chinese (Asian) people totally excluded?

Invictus

Dr.GH · 02-04-2003, 10:34 PM

As far as the Moses, Abraham, and the rest go, I would recommend that you read The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology�s New Vision of Anciennt Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman. Finkelstein and Silberman are internationally respected scholars of the ancient mideast and the Bible.

beausoleil · 02-05-2003, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr.GH
As far as the Moses, Abraham, and the rest go, I would recommend that you read The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology�s New Vision of Anciennt Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman. Finkelstein and Silberman are internationally respected scholars of the ancient mideast and the Bible.

I concur. Prompted by a debate on this board I read it a couple of months back. It really is fascinating.

Jobar · 02-05-2003, 06:28 AM

Can anyone refer him to a thread here on E/C which discusses the matter?

Wyz_sub10 · 02-05-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr.GH
As far as the Moses, Abraham, and the rest go, I would recommend that you read The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology�s New Vision of Anciennt Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman. Finkelstein and Silberman are internationally respected scholars of the ancient mideast and the Bible.

I bought this on a previous recommendation of yours (I believe). I am enjoying it immensly and agree it is a great starting point.

Soul Invictus · 02-05-2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beausoleil
I concur. Prompted by a debate on this board I read it a couple of months back. It really is fascinating.

Would you be able to refer me to that particular thread/topic?

02-04-2003, 06:22 PM	#1
Soul Invictus Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 15,576	Historicity of Biblical Characters and Events This post was initially posted in Bib/crit and I was advised by a moderator that I may get a better response in this forum, so here goes! I'm told that the website in my post has the timelines wrong as well as the points of origins. If anyone could share some sources in my quest to get a better account of Biblical vs historical timelines also, I'd be ever so grateful!: I think there was a post a while back stating the historicity of Alexander the Great was more than that for Jesus... That's what sparked my post. We always here about the great ancient kings of Egypt, like Thutmose and Akenhaten. Personally I've never studied enough to know the sources for this, however I'm sure it would like in the hieroglyphics.. One good thing about the Egyptians., they valued written record. What I want to know is that of the more popular Biblical characters, such as Abraham, Moses, Kings David and Solomon, is there any textual script to support the existence of these characters, outside of your KJV? I''m not well versed on any of the original Bibles of Hebrew of what not, but what I want to know is that is the Bible our sole source for information on these characters? There are historical records on Plato, and Aristotle, and Constantine the Great, correct? Well is there anything to corroborate the existence of these characters? Another thing, - the lineages of man have been attributed to Noah's 3 nations idea....for his 3 sons. Is there any historical reference to him as well, and in the scientific community I found this So I was wondering to what extent in the scientific community (dispite the link I provided) is the idea of Noah being important to the geneaology of mankind prevalent. If he is deemed critical, then he has to be accepted as having existed, (which I was wondering is there an outside source for) I understand the Bible is going to have a portion of truth as well as it's portion of fancy. I'm wondering where the characters we're presented with lie? *Final point* How historically correct are events in the Bible that have been corroborated? An example I'm referring to is the enslavement of Egyptians during the Moses era. I had questions about how the Egyptians are portrayed in the Bible vs that from what history shows us. I was watching a program about the Great Pyramids, and two scholars balked at the idea that the Egyptians operated a slave system (in a modern European sense) to create the Pyramids. They went on to explain that the workers would have been proud to have worked on a burial palace for the king. The Bible speaks of King Nebuchadnezzar as well, and vilifies him. Was he as evil a king as portrayed? What other errant portrayals of events are there? Is there any balance portrayals in the Bible? Also, there's no evidence of a great flood, right? I think you all get the jist! Invictus

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02-04-2003, 06:52 PM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Invictus, you say that the BC&A mods sent you here? I am at a loss as to why- as far as I can tell, the only part of your post which is even close to our usual topics is Another thing, - the lineages of man have been attributed to Noah's 3 nations idea....for his 3 sons. Is there any historical reference to him as well, and in the scientific community I found this So I was wondering to what extent in the scientific community (dispite the link I provided) is the idea of Noah being important to the geneaology of mankind prevalent. If he is deemed critical, then he has to be accepted as having existed, (which I was wondering is there an outside source for) (And you need to add the link you mentioned.) I suggest that you break this up into 2 posts- one consisting of the above, and the other to go to BC&A, or perhaps General Religion Discussions. If any of our regulars here have anything to say about the genetic problems which would result if all humanity was descended from the few on the Ark, go ahead. But the rest is not appropriate to this forum.

02-04-2003, 07:02 PM	#4
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	I gather you're after the standard "why the entire human race could not be descended from the arkers" speil. Thats not my thing, but just to clarify: is that what you're looking for?

02-04-2003, 10:34 PM	#6
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	As far as the Moses, Abraham, and the rest go, I would recommend that you read *The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology�s New Vision of Anciennt Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts* by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman. Finkelstein and Silberman are internationally respected scholars of the ancient mideast and the Bible.

02-05-2003, 06:28 AM	#8
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Can anyone refer him to a thread here on E/C which discusses the matter?

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