Freethought & Rationalism Archive

meritocrat · 05-08-2003, 12:31 PM

Imagine a group of early modern humans living in Africa 100,000 years ago. They (in all likelihood) possesed some basic spritual beliefs but evidently were not Christians.

As they had no true contact with Chrisitanity (and never possessed an opportunity to accept Jesus) would God allow them into heaven?

BioBeing · 05-08-2003, 01:55 PM

Ahh, but they didn't exist did they? I mean, how could they, if the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-08-2003, 04:15 PM

You know it's funny none of the creators of christianity thought of any of these problems and paradoxes when they dreamed this shit up. What were they smoking?

Abel Stable · 05-08-2003, 04:34 PM

I've heard xians say that god judges them based on some sort of basic moral scale- something like he measures how well they lived in accordance with his will, despite never hearing of all his rules. Then, whenever they first hear about christ & the bible - thats when it changes and you're obligated to either accept it or burn. I'm sorry, I mean you're given the free will to accept the teachings of christ, or burn. Anyway, I imagine that's gotta be a pretty elaborate system god has planned out to decide when you've crossed the line & are on the spot.

long winded fool · 05-08-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by meritocrat
Imagine a group of early modern humans living in Africa 100,000 years ago. They (in all likelihood) possesed some basic spritual beliefs but evidently were not Christians.

As they had no true contact with Chrisitanity (and never possessed an opportunity to accept Jesus) would God allow them into heaven?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sci_Fidelity
You know it's funny none of the creators of christianity thought of any of these problems and paradoxes when they dreamed this shit up. What were they smoking?

NIV Romans: 12-15

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Sci_Fidelity · 05-09-2003, 09:08 AM

Poste by Long winded fool:

Quote:

NIV Romans: 12-15

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

So?

long winded fool · 05-09-2003, 09:44 AM

So there's no logical dilemma. Gentiles (atheists, proto-humans, anyone who's not a Jew/Christian) are judged fairly by their actions and consciences and need not have ever heard of Jesus or Christianity. These things are guides. If you have a guide, it is wise to follow it, but all anyone really needs to go to heaven has already been "written on their heart," according to the Bible. I read this to mean that the laws of Christianity are nothing more than complete kindness to your fellow man/woman and common sense. If you already possess these things, what would you need to read a book for? What would you even need to read for? On the other hand, wouldn't you want to read a book that was about these things?

The rules of Christianity are required to be followed to go to heaven. The guide which gives clues as to how to find these rules is not required to be followed, (though if you are destined for heaven, you'll do the things the guide tells people to do without knowing it.) Anyone can find the rules on their own. Anyone can overcome instinct and use their ability to reason to be selfless and unconditionally loving. If you are lucky enough to have the guide also, you are not wise to disregard it. Disregarding it would be unreasonable and an instinctive desire to choose the easy way which leads to selfishness over the hard way which leads to selflessness.

BioBeing · 05-09-2003, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by long winded fool
Anyone can overcome instinct and use their ability to reason to be selfless and unconditionally loving.

Unconditional love, to all our fellow men and women? Bugs, birds, flowers, beasts.... Is that what you mean here? Does such a person actually exist? What if they are a Buddist (no offense, but to me, that seems more likely than they being an Xian)?

Of course, altruism can be seen as a trait that has evolved - apes certainly disply it (living in family groups, keeping each other clean etc).

long winded fool · 05-09-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
Unconditional love, to all our fellow men and women? Bugs, birds, flowers, beasts.... Is that what you mean here? Does such a person actually exist? What if they are a Buddist (no offense, but to me, that seems more likely than they being an Xian)?

Of course, altruism can be seen as a trait that has evolved - apes certainly disply it (living in family groups, keeping each other clean etc).

If we are, for the moment, assuming that there is a God and that He is the God of the Bible, (as is implied in the op) then yes there once existed a person who loved unconditionally. The entire New Testament is about Him, and He admonishes us to be like Him.

I agree that altruism is a beneficial utilitarian trait. I think that is why it is exactly half of one of the two the most important Christian commandments, according to Jesus. Love your brother...

A Buddhist who follows xian ideals to the letter, even if he is unaware that he is following xian ideals, is a xian who would rather call himself a Buddhist. "If it walks like a duck..." Since I don't think God speaks English, I doubt much would hinge on vocabulary. Indeed, Jesus said during his ministry that he hadn't found anyone in Israel with as great a faith as a man who happened to be a pagan.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-09-2003, 10:49 AM

God doesn't speak english? You can't be serious...

Quote:

So there's no logical dilemma. Gentiles (atheists, proto-humans, anyone who's not a Jew/Christian) are judged fairly by their actions and consciences and need not have ever heard of Jesus or Christianity.

Of course there's a dilemma. how are these people supposed to know how to behave if they've never seen the guidelines?

These things are guides. If you have a guide, it is wise to follow it, but all anyone really needs to go to heaven has already been "written on their heart," according to the Bible.

see above

I read this to mean that the laws of Christianity are nothing more than complete kindness to your fellow man/woman and common sense.

You mean like the crusades? That type of kindness?

05-08-2003, 12:31 PM	#1
meritocrat Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 2,608	Early modern humans in heaven? Imagine a group of early modern humans living in Africa 100,000 years ago. They (in all likelihood) possesed some basic spritual beliefs but evidently were not Christians. As they had no true contact with Chrisitanity (and never possessed an opportunity to accept Jesus) would God allow them into heaven?

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05-08-2003, 01:55 PM	#2
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Ahh, but they didn't exist did they? I mean, how could they, if the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

05-08-2003, 04:15 PM	#3
Sci_Fidelity Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 595	You know it's funny none of the creators of christianity thought of any of these problems and paradoxes when they dreamed this shit up. What were they smoking?

05-08-2003, 04:34 PM	#4
Abel Stable Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 356	I've heard xians say that god judges them based on some sort of basic moral scale- something like he measures how well they lived in accordance with his will, despite never hearing of all his rules. Then, whenever they first hear about christ & the bible - thats when it changes and you're obligated to either accept it or burn. I'm sorry, I mean you're given the free will to accept the teachings of christ, or burn. Anyway, I imagine that's gotta be a pretty elaborate system god has planned out to decide when you've crossed the line & are on the spot.

05-09-2003, 09:44 AM	#7
long winded fool Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 2,113	So there's no logical dilemma. Gentiles (atheists, proto-humans, anyone who's not a Jew/Christian) are judged fairly by their actions and consciences and need not have ever heard of Jesus or Christianity. These things are guides. If you have a guide, it is wise to follow it, but all anyone really needs to go to heaven has already been "written on their heart," according to the Bible. I read this to mean that the laws of Christianity are nothing more than complete kindness to your fellow man/woman and common sense. If you already possess these things, what would you need to read a book for? What would you even need to read for? On the other hand, wouldn't you want to read a book that was about these things? The rules of Christianity are required to be followed to go to heaven. The guide which gives clues as to how to find these rules is not required to be followed, (though if you are destined for heaven, you'll do the things the guide tells people to do without knowing it.) Anyone can find the rules on their own. Anyone can overcome instinct and use their ability to reason to be selfless and unconditionally loving. If you are lucky enough to have the guide also, you are not wise to disregard it. Disregarding it would be unreasonable and an instinctive desire to choose the easy way which leads to selfishness over the hard way which leads to selflessness.

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