Magus55

The Roman official Tacitus:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44.

Seutonius, a Roman Historian.

"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Life of Claudius.

The Jewish Talmud:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. . . but since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." Babylonia Sanhedrin 43A

Phlegin, a historian who lived in the 1st century:

"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." De. opif. mund. II21

Lucian, a hostile to Christians in the 2nd Century:

"The Christians. . . worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced this new cult, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt for death and self devotion . . . their lawgiver [taught] they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take on faith . . . " The Passing Peregrinus

Pliny, a roman senator:

Christians were "meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do wicked deeds, never commit fraud, theft, adultery, not to lie nor to deny a trust. . . " Epistles X96

And alot of atheists on this board don't deny that Jesus the person existed and was crucified.

christ-on-a-stick

Magus, exactly how is any of that relevant to the falsity of your statement? If you wish to rephrase your statement you are certainly welcome to do so but the fact remains that your original claim of is not true. Can you address that please? And again, I'd be happy to furnish additional links that show that historians have been investigating and wrestling with this issue for many, MANY years - and that many reputable historians and scholars are of the opinion that Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels is in fact wholly or in part mythical.

Magus55

Ok fine, Some historians still claim he didn't exist, most don't, including the people closest to the time period.

Happy?

christ-on-a-stick

Yes, Magus, I *AM* happy!

I would point out though that in a sense, you are using "argumentum ad populum" here... recall that at one time most people thought the earth was flat, and most of the scientists of the time backed 'em up, until it was *definitively* proven to be false.

The problem with such long-past history is that unlike scientific matters it is not quite so easy to definitively prove (or disprove). IMO it therefore becomes a matter of probability based on evidence, for which we still have none "for" a historical Jesus outside ancient texts (which exist for ALL the alleged deities et al) and a lot "against" by virtue of a more detailed analysis of said texts in contrast with other more consistent history of the day.

Lauri

lpetrich

Unfortunately, these references are extremely tiny, and very unsuggestive of the kind of celebrity depicted in the Gospels. Furthermore, none of these historians had had first-hand knowledge of Jesus Christ -- they only learned of him from his followers.

oriecat

Magus, is your faith so weak that you truly have to lie to yourself this way? Option B didn't exclude God from creating it. So you seem to be saying that you honestly believe that it is more plausible, more rational, that things are NOT as they seem, because otherwise you don't see how god could have made them.

winstonjen

You came to this conclusion before even reading the article. Hmm. Didn't Jesus tell you not to judge? This is a clear example of theists following their beliefs only when it suits them.

Radorth

No problems with Jewish kids jeering at prophets since then, I hear.

But then military style boot camp works too.

Rad

AquaVita

Entirely in poor taste.

Tarnaak

Actually God has never "over-ridden" anyones freewill. Those that did God's bidding, did so willingly. It may be true that God used methods to get SOME to do his will, but others did it willingly because they were men of God.

The thing you as atheists don't understand, is that God is just that God! If he wanted to he could MAKE us worship him. But because he loves us and wants us to WANT to worship him he leaves us to our own, thats freewill!