Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chip · 12-09-2002, 09:10 AM

Devilnaut, I guess so though from the definitions of the term solipsist that I find it seems to deny the existence of the perceptions of others. In the regard that what is mine is yours and vice versa, the pain of others is my pain too so I can remain a solipsist technically but deny the negative claim of egocentricism that seems to be associated with the term.

Regards, Chip

Keith Russell · 12-09-2002, 09:39 AM

Greetings:

If there were no object of your perceptions--if there were no reality apart from your consciousness--then you would be omnipotent.

You're not.

Truth is reality: independent of your wishes, hopes, dreams, consciousness, etc.

Keith.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]

Evangelion · 12-09-2002, 09:40 AM

Chip -

Quote:

Evangelion, Hitler would have concurred

With what? With the conclusion that there is such a thing as absolute truth, and that we can determine this by an appeal to objective methods? Well, I'm glad to hear that he managed to get something right, at least!

Quote:

murder silences the arguments of your opponents and makes your faith beliefs unchallenged and in the eyes of the survivor, true.

What?

Quote:

Ask me after you perceive that I am dead as to whether or not there is an absolute truth that is determined by the strongest and merciless.

No, I'd rather ask you while your alive, if it's all the same to you. Dead people can't answer; the reason being - they're dead.

Quote:

I will not honor such a ridiculous question with any response.

So all of a sudden it's "ridiculous" to ask you if you're willing to demonstrate the veracity of your claims by an appeal to objective methods?

Are you sure you're not a theist after all?

Quote:

I remain an infidel and a heretic

What?

Quote:

to the true believers of an outside authority.

What "true belivers of an outside authority"? Could you at least try to stay on topic, please? None of this has anything to do with "believers" (whether true or otherwise), let alone "an outside authority" (however this is defined.)

You have asserted that there is no such thing as absolute truth. Since I argue that objectivity is capable of leading us to absolute truth, I have invited you to test your assertion by means of a hypothetical resort to objective methods.

Curiously enough, you have declined...

Quote:

True modern science only deals with confidence factors.

*snip*

...and as previously noted, those "confidence factors" are so high as to constitute absolute truth (insofar as we humans are concerned.)

Quote:

Might makes right?

No, nobody's saying "Might makes right." How is this relevant to the discussion?

Quote:

I hold that there is reason and logic.

Do you? Well, you weren't too keen on them a minute ago!

By contrast, I'm the one who has presented a test on the basis of reason and logic - and you're the one who's dismissed it as "ridiculous"!

Chip · 12-09-2002, 09:47 AM

Evangelion, since you are willing to put so much effort and bandwidth to your beliefs they must be correct. I am not willing to continue the debate. Me and my sisters refused to go to Sunday school early on. We saw no purpose to continually subjecting ourselves to the evangelists. Preach all you want. I am no longer a part of your audience.

Regards, Chip

Evangelion · 12-09-2002, 10:07 AM

Chip - may I remind you that:

You had not presented an argument against religion.
I have not presented a defence of religion.

What actually happened was that I presented an argument from objectivity, and you immediately digressed into religion. (And now you're doing it again.)

As for this...

Quote:

Evangelion, since you are willing to put so much effort and bandwidth to your beliefs they must be correct.

...I can't decide if it's a straw man, or just plain weird.

This thread began with a question about the possible existence of absolute truth. Religion was not the starting point. Religion was not mentioned by the person who started this thread. Religion was not mentioned by me. Religion was not mentioned by anybody until you came along and started introducing irrelevant material.

I have made no attempt to defend my beliefs, as anyone who reads this thread can see for themselves. My argument has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with objective truth.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Evangelion ]

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chip:
Evangelion, since you are willing to put so much effort and bandwidth to your beliefs they must be correct. I am not willing to continue the debate. Me and my sisters refused to go to Sunday school early on. We saw no purpose to continually subjecting ourselves to the evangelists. Preach all you want. I am no longer a part of your audience.

Regards, Chip

Thus is how all subjective arguements end.

Chip, you just prooved why subjectivity has no place in a debate for truth. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Evangelion · 12-09-2002, 10:10 AM

Ah, thankyou, JusticeMachine.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell.

The Dionysian · 12-09-2002, 11:52 AM

Good/Evil, Truth/Falsity, nonsense! There are only different points of view.

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Dionysian:
Good/Evil, Truth/Falsity, nonsense! There are only different points of view.

So is that your opinion or is that an absolute truth. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Ooooh wait.....is it an absolute truth that there is no absolute truth, but if that is absolutly true that in isn't.

Ow!!!! my brain hurts.

I can however say that it is absolutly true that there is absolute truth.........there that makes so much more sense now doesn't it.

Calvan · 12-09-2002, 12:55 PM

Justicemachine,

Quote:

I can however say that it is absolutly true that there is absolute truth.........there that makes so much more sense now doesn't it.

What is absolute truth, please. Could you provide an example?

Calvan

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Calvan ]

12-09-2002, 09:39 AM	#12
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: If there were no object of your perceptions--if there were no reality apart from your consciousness--then you would be omnipotent. You're not. Truth is reality: independent of your wishes, hopes, dreams, consciousness, etc. Keith. [ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

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12-09-2002, 09:10 AM	#11
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	Devilnaut, I guess so though from the definitions of the term solipsist that I find it seems to deny the existence of the perceptions of others. In the regard that what is mine is yours and vice versa, the pain of others is my pain too so I can remain a solipsist technically but deny the negative claim of egocentricism that seems to be associated with the term. Regards, Chip

12-09-2002, 09:47 AM	#14
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	Evangelion, since you are willing to put so much effort and bandwidth to your beliefs they must be correct. I am not willing to continue the debate. Me and my sisters refused to go to Sunday school early on. We saw no purpose to continually subjecting ourselves to the evangelists. Preach all you want. I am no longer a part of your audience. Regards, Chip

12-09-2002, 10:10 AM	#17
Evangelion Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Walsall, UK Posts: 1,490	Ah, thankyou, JusticeMachine. That's the whole thing in a nutshell.

12-09-2002, 11:52 AM	#18
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	Good/Evil, Truth/Falsity, nonsense! There are only different points of view.

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