JusticeMachine

Does truth exist outside of my ability to perceive it, or does what I perceive define what truth is?

Evangelion

I argue that truth exists independent of your ability to perceive it.

Chip

Nope. That is the main defense of the theist and the nationalist. Truth is always just an approximation. An attempt to perceive what are the shared subjective perspectives of truth is the best any one can do at any time.

IMHO.

Regards, Chip

JusticeMachine

Do you think it is the main defense of the theist and nationalist, because there is more substance/validity in a belief rooted in the truth?

JusticeMachine

I also contend that there is no point in debating subjectivity. If everything is subjective, then if I am debating the abortion issue or the issue of chocolate ice cream being better than vanilla (which I believe all true scholars will agree that chocolate is better than vanilla), neither debate will every be able to reach a factual conclusion, for if there is no truth/fact then I needn’t ever change my belief/view to accommodate for the truth/fact. Thus there is not point ever in logging into a forum to debate subjectivity, it is just silly.

Evangelion

Chip -

Accepting (for the sake of the argument) that this is true, I'd like to know why it's wrong just because it's "the main defence of the theist and the nationalist." That's a non sequiter, if ever I heard one.

If you want to be absolutely pedantic, yes. But modern science seems to be quite happy with the concept of objective truth, with "approximations" so minute as to be totally irrelevant to our everyday lives. You don't (for example) see people stopping at the traffic lights and asking each other "Does it look green to you...?"

I shall look forward to strapping you to a hospital bed, setting you on fire, and listening to your (no doubt highly persuasive) refutation of the "absolute truth" that you are slowly burning to death.

That'll be worth hearing, I'm sure!

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Evangelion ]</p>

Chip

Evangelion, Hitler would have concurred, murder silences the arguments of your opponents and makes your faith beliefs unchallenged and in the eyes of the survivor, true. Ask me after you perceive that I am dead as to whether or not there is an absolute truth that is determined by the strongest and merciless. I will not honor such a ridiculous question with any response.

I remain an infidel and a heretic to the true believers of an outside authority.

True modern science only deals with confidence factors. Objectivity is only what can be repeated and made available to subjective observation. Of course there is much that passes itself off as science that is basically just business as usual. Might makes right? I hold that there is reason and logic.

Regards, Chip

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Chip ]</p>

Devilnaut

Are you a solipsist?

Anyway, truth seems a like a pretty fuzzy word to me. Is "absolute truth" equivalent to "objective reality"?

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

JusticeMachine

Reason and logic are founded and flourish in fact and truth. Reason and logic by nature seek out and expose the truth, there by stamping out subjectivity. No science starts with examination of what is being perceived, but from there it lusts after eliminating the very subjective perception that spawned it.

I may not be able to accurately sense the truth on my own, but if myself and another can get that much closer, add a third person and thus increases our ability to sense truth accurately again....and so on....and so on....etc.

The true enemy of science is not theism, but subjectivity rooted in willed ignorance and apathy.

"Truth is incontrovertibly, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill

Beoran

No, the way I see it, truth is simply the way aan individual interprets rality, or thinks reality is. The truth of one person can be the lie of another. I do think that there is one single reality, but it's impossible to have a truly obnjective view on it. The best we can do is to compare as many subjective viewpoints and judge the evidence for our selves. In other words, be an eclectic. ^_^