Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Camaban · 11-11-2002, 02:56 AM

I'd like to thank you.

I might be being clumsy as all hell (relatively, anyway) in arguing it. But nonetheless, I'm enjoying myself. (Information that I've managed to glean from it is quite useful)

<a href="http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3616&perpage=15&pagenum ber=4" target="_blank">http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3616&perpage=15&pagenum ber=4</a>

Chromosome bit more or less starts here.

scigirl · 11-11-2002, 06:13 AM

I think it was me (or I stole it from someone else) and I'm glad people are using it!

scigirl

RufusAtticus · 11-11-2002, 07:06 AM

Quote:

From Bob B:
Let us assume that Apes and Humans are quite similar (which they are).

So what?

The similarity could be due to descent from a common ancestor OR it could be due to a common design element approach by one or more intelligent designers.

Quote:

Rufi version:
Let us assume that parents and their children are quite similar (which they are).

So what?

The similarity could be due to descent OR it could be due to a common design element approach by one or more intelligent designers.

I guess I won't have to pay that child support after all. "Your honor, that's not my child. The similarities in DNA are because we have a common designer. Not because his mother is a slut."

~~RvFvS~~

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

ps418 · 11-11-2002, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:


I guess I won't have to pay that child support after all. "Your honor, that's not my child. The similarities in DNA are because we have a common designer. Not because his mother is a slut."

~~RvFvS~~

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

Brilliant!

I guess the defendent who was recently convicted of injecting his wife with HIV-1 based on a phylogenetic analyses of the a) the defendent's patient's HIV-1 reverse transcriptase and env DNA, and b) the infected wife's HIV-1 reverse transcriptase and env DNA, could have used the same defense too.

Molecular evidence of HIV-1 transmission in a criminal case. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2002 Oct 29;99(22):14292-7

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]

Camaban · 11-11-2002, 01:28 PM

Quote:

I think it was me (or I stole it from someone else) and I'm glad people are using it!

Well, to who, or if you stole it, whoever you stole it off, thanks.

RufusAtticus · 11-11-2002, 01:37 PM

Scigirl was the first person I saw challenge creationists with it. I have seen a couple of biology textbooks that use it as evidence of common descent and/or an example of chromosome rearangment that happens during evolution.

WinAce · 11-11-2002, 02:26 PM

One thing to mention: a chromosome FISSION in the apes wouldn't account for the evidence. For one thing, it would have to occur seperately in chimps, gorrilas and orangutans, unless they were related by common ancestry (but I don't think cretos would want to admit you can get a gorilla and a chimp from the same 'kind')

For another, the telomeres and centromeres stuck in the wrong places indicate a fusion event, not a fission event. I'm sure someone else can expand on this.

RufusAtticus · 11-13-2002, 11:07 AM

I want to offer my congrats to Scigirl, for creating this challenge. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=448983#post448983" target="_blank">This</a> is the reason why we do these things.

Quote:

Originally posted by DNAUnion posted on ChristianForums:
chickenman: Like I said, if you ever want to discuss the evidence for the common ancestry of humans with other primates rather than embarass yourself further by displaying your disconnection with the scientific reality - take a gander at the urate oxidase pseudogene thread.

DNAunion: The cincher for me was the fused chromosome. Chimps have 48 (24 pairs) and humans have 46 (23 pairs). I used to bring this (and other things) up when evolutionists said our DNA was 98.5% identical to chimps. Then someone gave an explanation for this difference: our common ancestor had 48 chromosomes but in our lineage there was a fusion: two separate chromosomes fused to become one.

An ad hoc explanation? Nope. Unfortunately I don't have a link, but believe me (some will, some won't), it's a very solid case. Not only has the chromosome been determined, but the exact site of the fusion as well.

I might take a few minutes and see if I can find a link to a discussion at Infidels. ... I'm back. This looks like it might be the one.

scigirl · 11-13-2002, 02:04 PM

Wow, that was soooo cool to read. That made my day. Thanks rufus,

Ok back to studying nerves,

scigirl

CorumB · 11-19-2002, 02:27 AM

This has probably already been posted around here somewhere, but at the risk of repeating some excellent information, here's a link to an ideogram showing the staining patterns on the chromosomes for humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans, with the homologous chromosomes being shown side-by-side for easy comparison.

<a href="http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/chro.all.html" target="_blank">Chromosomes of Humans, Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangutans</a>

For example, human chromosome #2 (the one that resulted from the fusion of separate ancestral chromosomes) is shown alongside the separate chromosomes from the the other great apes. It's also easy to spot other chromosomal rearrangements, such as the obvious inversion in the orangutan chromosome that corresponds to human chromosome #3.

This ideogram is originally from a "The Origin of Man: A Chromosomal Pictorial Legacy" by Yunis and Prakash, published in Science, vol 215, pp. 1525-1530. The site has a link to higher resolution ideograms of the chromosomes, and some very good lesson plans for teachers regarding evolution.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: CorumB ]

11-11-2002, 02:56 AM	#1
Camaban Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 473	For whoever first came up with the Chromosome Challenge I'd like to thank you. I might be being clumsy as all hell (relatively, anyway) in arguing it. But nonetheless, I'm enjoying myself. (Information that I've managed to glean from it is quite useful) <a href="http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3616&perpage=15&pagenum ber=4" target="_blank">http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3616&perpage=15&pagenum ber=4</a> Chromosome bit more or less starts here.

11-19-2002, 02:27 AM	#10
CorumB New Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: US Posts: 2	This has probably already been posted around here somewhere, but at the risk of repeating some excellent information, here's a link to an ideogram showing the staining patterns on the chromosomes for humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans, with the homologous chromosomes being shown side-by-side for easy comparison. <a href="http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/chro.all.html" target="_blank">Chromosomes of Humans, Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangutans</a> For example, human chromosome #2 (the one that resulted from the fusion of separate ancestral chromosomes) is shown alongside the separate chromosomes from the the other great apes. It's also easy to spot other chromosomal rearrangements, such as the obvious inversion in the orangutan chromosome that corresponds to human chromosome #3. This ideogram is originally from a "The Origin of Man: A Chromosomal Pictorial Legacy" by Yunis and Prakash, published in Science, vol 215, pp. 1525-1530. The site has a link to higher resolution ideograms of the chromosomes, and some very good lesson plans for teachers regarding evolution. [ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: CorumB ]</p>

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11-11-2002, 06:13 AM	#2
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	I think it was me (or I stole it from someone else) and I'm glad people are using it! scigirl

11-11-2002, 01:37 PM	#6
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Scigirl was the first person I saw challenge creationists with it. I have seen a couple of biology textbooks that use it as evidence of common descent and/or an example of chromosome rearangment that happens during evolution.

11-11-2002, 02:26 PM	#7
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	One thing to mention: a chromosome FISSION in the apes wouldn't account for the evidence. For one thing, it would have to occur seperately in chimps, gorrilas and orangutans, unless they were related by common ancestry (but I don't think cretos would want to admit you can get a gorilla and a chimp from the same 'kind') For another, the telomeres and centromeres stuck in the wrong places indicate a fusion event, not a fission event. I'm sure someone else can expand on this.

11-13-2002, 02:04 PM	#9
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Wow, that was soooo cool to read. That made my day. Thanks rufus, Ok back to studying nerves, scigirl

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