Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dienekes · 08-12-2003, 06:41 AM

someone asked me this "if God does not exist, why do you think you exist? What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?" i think there are a lot of fallacies in this one and would be easily refuted but my thoughts are so scattered right now that i don't think i would be able to give a clear answer that she would understand. any suggestions?

Darth Dane · 08-12-2003, 06:44 AM

God answers Moses:

I Am that I Am

Do you exist?

DD - Love & Laughter

Division By Zero · 08-12-2003, 06:54 AM

Is she trying to say that life MUST have some overarching purpose for existence? If so, it's a ridiculous unsupported assertion. Ask her for proof that life has to have a purpose in order to exist.

If she's just asking what you think your purpose is, then I can't answer for you. If this is what she's asking, though, she seems to be implying that failure to worship her God equates to a meaningless existence, which is also ridiculous. (Of course, maybe she's just curious.)

spacer1 · 08-12-2003, 06:58 AM

If the tooth fairy does not exist, why do you think you exist? What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?

I think the questions of (i)whether god/s exists; (ii)why you think you exist; and (iii) what is the meaning/purpose of your life in this world, are three independent questions.

ex-xian · 08-12-2003, 07:21 AM

One response is what Russell said. He said that unless the existence of god is taken as a given, the Question of Life's Meaninging is a meaningless question.

Wiploc · 08-13-2003, 01:46 PM

Value requires a valuer. If you mean to accomplish something with your life, that is a meaning of your life. If I mean to accomplish by you, that is a second meaning. If there is a god, and if he too means something about you, that is a third meaning.

I don't see any argument that a god's meaning would somehow be priviledged, would somehow be THE meaning of your life. Nor is it reasonable to argue that your life is meaningless without god.

crc

RTS · 08-13-2003, 03:01 PM

Hi dienekes,

You have made a wise choice in casting off the shackles of your early childhood religious brainwashing and overcoming your 'toilet-trained' religious superstitious beliefs. You should be proud of yourself for accomplishing something most indoctrinated believers never will. At your young age, and by making this wise choice, you will be light years ahead of your peers in viewing the reality of the objective universe as it really is. And doing so without the need for those fanciful, made up, mythological explanations and unsupported, illogical answers that religion offers.

You ask for a rebuttal to the question:
"if God does not exist, why do you think you exist?"

First always remember, the burden of proof is always upon the one making the positive claim. The above question is a common Creationist tactic and is easily refuted.

Simply touch the person on the hand and say "That is an absurd question. Did you feel me touch you hand?"
If the person is honest they must reply "yes".
Then say "There. I've proved I exist. Now you prove God exists."
(I almost suggested that you slap them upside their head with a 2 by 4 to prove you exist, but I don't want to promote violence to prove a point).

You further ask for rebuttal to:
"What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?"

I personally take offense at anyone of faith challenging me with this condescending and arrogant question because they imply that since I do not believe in their "Socially accepted, Religious, Superstitious, Supernatural, Super Human-like Magician in the Sky" that my life does not have meaning.

Adamantly but nicely express to them that you take offense to this question and that your life has plenty of meaning. All without the need for their religious stupidstitious beliefs. Tell them you view the reality of the world as it IS, and thankfully without the illogical and fanciful concoctions that superstitious beliefs offer.

Good luck and best wishes in you college accomplishments.

If you have any further questions, I'm sure many of the learned posters on these forums will be very happy to help.

dienekes · 08-13-2003, 04:19 PM

thanks for your answers and your support RTS. I have been studying in Catholic schools all my life (i'm in a catholic university right now). I have tried to understand what and who this "God" is they speak highly of. I had a lot of questions none in my community could answer directly. All they could come up with were poetry, fuzzy analogies, fables, etc.. The more i asked, the more they got me confused. I asked "Where is God?" i get "He's in heaven." or "He's all around you if you would just care to look." When i ask questions which they could not think of analogies to manipulate with, they would simply dismiss it to faith. I find religion absurd, I find the concept of faith even more absurd. It find it illogical and very unproductive.

Everyone seems to be intellectually hostile to me now, at school or at my neighborhood. They challenge me every chance they get so I really appreciate all your help.

RTS · 08-13-2003, 04:42 PM

I too was raised Catholic, did the whole alter boy routine and was even once selected Bible student of the year in Catechism. I also had doubts and many questions from as far back as I can remember. The response that I always got to all unanswerable question was "you shouldn't question God!"

It must be really tough attending a Catholic university and being met with such condescending hostility. Just try to hang in there to get your sheepskin, but always "be true to yourself" and hopefully someday if you are real lucky you will find a teacher that won't lie to you.

Here is a list of logical fallacies which would be helpful in your discernment of fact from fiction:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

and the website is excellent in itself:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/

There is a thread of mine here at II DF that may be of interest to you on the issue of the cognitive content of God:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=60252

Best wishes and don't hesitate to ask questions...

Ryanfire · 08-13-2003, 06:23 PM

"if God does not exist, why do you think you exist?"

The first answer would be "I think, therefore I am". However, this is a set up question. These two questions are not linked together. She implies for you to exist, god must exist. You could easily switch this question around

"If I do not exist, why does God exist?"

"What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?"

Nothing in life has any meaning but the meaning you give it.

Regards,

Ryan

08-12-2003, 06:41 AM	#1
dienekes Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 27	my existence proves god's existence? someone asked me this "if God does not exist, why do you think you exist? What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?" i think there are a lot of fallacies in this one and would be easily refuted but my thoughts are so scattered right now that i don't think i would be able to give a clear answer that she would understand. any suggestions?

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08-12-2003, 06:44 AM	#2
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	God answers Moses: I Am that I Am Do you exist? DD - Love & Laughter

08-12-2003, 06:54 AM	#3
Division By Zero Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 179	Is she trying to say that life MUST have some overarching purpose for existence? If so, it's a ridiculous unsupported assertion. Ask her for proof that life has to have a purpose in order to exist. If she's just asking what you think your purpose is, then I can't answer for you. If this is what she's asking, though, she seems to be implying that failure to worship her God equates to a meaningless existence, which is also ridiculous. (Of course, maybe she's just curious.)

08-12-2003, 06:58 AM	#4
spacer1 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 564	If the tooth fairy does not exist, why do you think you exist? What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world? I think the questions of (i)whether god/s exists; (ii)why you think you exist; and (iii) what is the meaning/purpose of your life in this world, are three independent questions.

08-12-2003, 07:21 AM	#5
ex-xian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 4,679	One response is what Russell said. He said that unless the existence of god is taken as a given, the Question of Life's Meaninging is a meaningless question.

08-13-2003, 01:46 PM	#6
Wiploc Contributor Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Alaska! Posts: 14,058	Value requires a valuer. If you mean to accomplish something with your life, that is a meaning of your life. If I mean to accomplish by you, that is a second meaning. If there is a god, and if he too means something about you, that is a third meaning. I don't see any argument that a god's meaning would somehow be priviledged, would somehow be THE meaning of your life. Nor is it reasonable to argue that your life is meaningless without god. crc

08-13-2003, 03:01 PM	#7
RTS Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 86	Hi dienekes, You have made a wise choice in casting off the shackles of your early childhood religious brainwashing and overcoming your 'toilet-trained' religious superstitious beliefs. You should be proud of yourself for accomplishing something most indoctrinated believers never will. At your young age, and by making this wise choice, you will be light years ahead of your peers in viewing the reality of the objective universe as it really is. And doing so without the need for those fanciful, made up, mythological explanations and unsupported, illogical answers that religion offers. You ask for a rebuttal to the question: "if God does not exist, why do you think you exist?" First always remember, the burden of proof is always upon the one making the positive claim. The above question is a common Creationist tactic and is easily refuted. Simply touch the person on the hand and say "That is an absurd question. Did you feel me touch you hand?" If the person is honest they must reply "yes". Then say "There. I've proved I exist. Now you prove God exists." (I almost suggested that you slap them upside their head with a 2 by 4 to prove you exist, but I don't want to promote violence to prove a point). You further ask for rebuttal to: "What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?" I personally take offense at anyone of faith challenging me with this condescending and arrogant question because they imply that since I do not believe in their "Socially accepted, Religious, Superstitious, Supernatural, Super Human-like Magician in the Sky" that my life does not have meaning. Adamantly but nicely express to them that you take offense to this question and that your life has plenty of meaning. All without the need for their religious stupidstitious beliefs. Tell them you view the reality of the world as it IS, and thankfully without the illogical and fanciful concoctions that superstitious beliefs offer. Good luck and best wishes in you college accomplishments. If you have any further questions, I'm sure many of the learned posters on these forums will be very happy to help.

08-13-2003, 04:19 PM	#8
dienekes Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 27	thanks for your answers and your support RTS. I have been studying in Catholic schools all my life (i'm in a catholic university right now). I have tried to understand what and who this "God" is they speak highly of. I had a lot of questions none in my community could answer directly. All they could come up with were poetry, fuzzy analogies, fables, etc.. The more i asked, the more they got me confused. I asked "Where is God?" i get "He's in heaven." or "He's all around you if you would just care to look." When i ask questions which they could not think of analogies to manipulate with, they would simply dismiss it to faith. I find religion absurd, I find the concept of faith even more absurd. It find it illogical and very unproductive. Everyone seems to be intellectually hostile to me now, at school or at my neighborhood. They challenge me every chance they get so I really appreciate all your help.

08-13-2003, 04:42 PM	#9
RTS Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 86	I too was raised Catholic, did the whole alter boy routine and was even once selected Bible student of the year in Catechism. I also had doubts and many questions from as far back as I can remember. The response that I always got to all unanswerable question was "you shouldn't question God!" It must be really tough attending a Catholic university and being met with such condescending hostility. Just try to hang in there to get your sheepskin, but always "be true to yourself" and hopefully someday if you are real lucky you will find a teacher that won't lie to you. Here is a list of logical fallacies which would be helpful in your discernment of fact from fiction: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm and the website is excellent in itself: http://www.nobeliefs.com/ There is a thread of mine here at II DF that may be of interest to you on the issue of the cognitive content of God: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=60252 Best wishes and don't hesitate to ask questions...

08-13-2003, 06:23 PM	#10
Ryanfire Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 301	"if God does not exist, why do you think you exist?" The first answer would be "I think, therefore I am". However, this is a set up question. These two questions are not linked together. She implies for you to exist, god must exist. You could easily switch this question around "If I do not exist, why does God exist?" "What's the meaning/purpose of your life in this world?" Nothing in life has any meaning but the meaning you give it. Regards, Ryan

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