Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 10-14-2002, 08:20 AM

I was at the local pet store the other day, and was absolutely enthralled with the puppies. Adorable chihuahuas and black labs, all with AKC papers and what not. I got to talking to the lady behind the counter and she confided that the puppies were going to be put down but were rescued just in time. Apparently they were from a breeder who was upset that a few of the puppies didn't show the "correct" features that were desired in the breed, and decided it was best to just put them down rather than have to feed them - after all, why keep a dog around if you can't show it or breed it?

This pissed the hell out of me - the guy basically runs a puppy mill (he's been arrested a few times) and when he decides the animals aren't up to par, he either shoots them himself or gets a vet to do the dirty work.

So - is it immoral to breed animals for desired traits?

livius drusus · 10-14-2002, 08:48 AM

Most puppy mills exist because pet stores require a constant supply of cute purebreds and care very little for the health of the genetic stock. I have never heard of a legitimate breeder killing non-show quality animals. Quite the opposite, in fact.

My family has bought several unshowable purebreds and not are they almost as expensive as their showy brethren, but every breeder insisted that they "stood by" their stock and would be glad to take the dog/cat back if for some reason we could no longer care for it.

I suspect the pet store lady was giving you a cover story to justify the nauseating and all-too common pet store practice of buying animals from known puppy millers. The "rescue" story is an excuse, imo.

Bree · 10-14-2002, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus:

I suspect the pet store lady was giving you a cover story to justify the nauseating and all-too common pet store practice of buying animals from known puppy millers. The "rescue" story is an excuse, imo.

Actually, it's not. I know the guy who owns the store - he has 4 dogs that he rescued from the breeder the LAST time he was arrested. Apparently he just took these dogs in to the store because he couldn't have any more in the house!

It's not that I'm against breeding per se - I just think that breeding animals to the extreme just for their traits is a nasty thing to do. A relative of Jekyll's has a purebred bulldog that is so inbred she has hip problems and her head is so big she has spine problems.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]

galiel · 10-14-2002, 10:05 AM

I'm afraid you've been taken in, Bree.

If the breeder were so mercenary, and the puppies were healthy enough to be offered at a pet shop, why would he put them down when he could make money selling them? F

Secondly, if the pet shop bought the puppies from a known outlaw breeder, who has been previously arrested, then he aiding and abetting a criminal, and his ethics are highly suspect (not that they aren't inherently by his running a "sad puppy in the little glass box" shop).

This story, as livius suspects, is actually a common and widespread sympathy sales tactic used by chains all over the place.

Never buy from a pet shop. There are many, many ethical breeders who will offer you a pet that is healthy, has been raised lovingly, and whose parents and siblings you can meet, so as to learn about their temperament and hereditary diseases, if any.

This shop owner is just exploiting your trusting empathetic nature.

Bree · 10-14-2002, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by galiel:
I'm afraid you've been taken in, Bree.

If the breeder were so mercenary, and the puppies were healthy enough to be offered at a pet shop, why would he put them down when he could make money selling them?

He can't sell them, silly. They all have crossbites or something wrong with their hips. No one wants an animal that has such "defects" - or at least in his mind, anyway.

Quote:

Secondly, if the pet shop bought the puppies from a known outlaw breeder, who has been previously arrested, then he aiding and abetting a criminal, and his ethics are highly suspect (not that they aren't inherently by his running a "sad puppy in the little glass box" shop).

First of all, my pet shop owner friend didn't "buy" the animals. He rescued them from the animal shelter, got them all spayed/neutered, microchipped, and is selling them in his store for a small fee (just to cover the spaying/neutering). This is more than our run-down, overcrowded animal shelter could ever do.

Quote:

This shop owner is just exploiting your trusting empathetic nature.

So glad you can make such long-range determinations about my friends. I'll be sure to return the favour. I'm sorry my pet shop owning friend owns a pet shop. He doesn't purchase any pets from anyone - merely re-sells/finds good homes for those who are abandoned. He gets dozens of furry friends from parents who have bought their children animals and then decide they're simply too difficult to take care of. I really can't see the harm in that, but if you know better, then I apologise.

I wasn't trying to have a discussion on whether pet shops were ethical - I'm trying to start one on the ethics of breeding for certain traits. I simply used the pet shop story as an opener - I guess I was wrong in that.

brighid · 10-14-2002, 10:34 AM

I know of many people who �breed� puppies and do so irresponsibly in order to make a quick $$. They don�t care about the health of the dog, breeding for temperament or attempting to minimize defects. I am disgusted by most pet shops and I won�t buy a dog from a pet shop. We researched many breeds and breeders before buying our Chinese Sharpei. We visited their kennels, we asked for referrals and we also did so for other breeds. A legitimate breeder WON�T sell to a pet store and they are very picky about whom they sell their dogs to. We had to sign a contract and legitimate breeders enforce those contracts. If your dog is defective � say they didn�t meet the health standards set by the breeder you can return the dog, and get a pick of a new puppy or a refund. I have heard of a German Sheppard breeder in Wisconsin who would put down any dog that wasn�t perfect, but I have found those types of breeders to be rare � the exception rather then the rule.

If that pet shop is buying dogs from a �breeder� who has been arrested � well you shouldn�t buy a dog from him EVER. Dogs are beautiful animals but one that has been bred badly can all sort of defects, including temperament ones that could prove to be harmful or deadly to the owner and the poor dog.

It�s immoral to attempt to play on your sympathies to make a quick buck. It�s immoral to purchase dogs from a man who breeds irresponsibly. It isn�t irresponsible to breed dogs for legitimate uses, with care and concern for their health and welfare.

This weekend we attended an adoption outing for rescued Dobermans. We are applying for adoption for a 5 year old male that was left in the back yard to die. Hopefully we will get him, but we will have to wait and see. People shouldn�t purchase dogs just because they are cute as puppies. People should really research the breed and determine if that type of dog will really fit into their lifestyle. Too often dogs are returned for being dogs and the failure of their owners to discipline them appropriately. Dogs are an enormous responsibility and the decision to own one shouldn�t be entered into lightly.

B

brighid · 10-14-2002, 10:44 AM

It sounds more like your friend rescues dogs. This is legitimate and there are people who are willing to �adopt� dogs (for a fee) even if they have defects. It�s much difficult of course because it�s a lot of hard work and carries potential risks that most people aren�t willing to take on. Usually someone like this is affiliated with a rescue organization and I have met some folks like this who rescue these dogs and put them up for adoption through their other animal related businesses: such as at the vet, or a dog obedience school.

There are pet store owners who exemplify those who both galiel and I have spoken of and I don�t think any one was attempting to disparage your friend, especially in lieu of what you have said. There was one store close to my house that is despicable. It always has tons of dogs to sell, but when you go into his shop it really reeks of urine, etc. The dogs are kept in the back and you can kind of see them, but you can�t go back and browse them and this is a bit fishy to me. I wanted to buy all of the dogs he had just to get them out of that rat hole.

It sounds like he is doing a good thing and it�s important to charge a fee in order to keep some of the riff-raff away AND to cover the fees from the good work he is doing for those animals.

Brighid

livius drusus · 10-14-2002, 10:51 AM

If we leave puppy mills and their sick practices of careless breeding for quantity alone aside, I think the morality of breeding for traits is ambiguous. Dogs have been selectively bred for certain traits ever since the first wolf was tamed and on the whole, I don't find that immoral.

I do question the obsession with aesthetics, however, particularly at the expense of the health of the individual animal and the long-term health of the breed. The bulldog is a good example of a dog which has had certain traits exaggerated for show purposes (the large head, for instance) to the point were they can no longer give birth without surgery. Dogs which have been bred for giantism (Great Danes, St. Bernards, etc) are known for hip and heart problems.

Still, reputable breeders will do their utmost to ensure the genetic strength of their stock and it is possible to avoid these weaknesses with a modicum of care.

DarkDruid · 10-14-2002, 01:05 PM

One thing I find immoral is the breeder's association determining (seemingly at random) what traits are award-winning and what ones are not. Frankly, they are so detatched that some of the Newfoundlands are getting quite sickly and (frankly) ugly. One breeder of large dogs I know is now switching to smaller dogs because the breeding standars are causing stillbirths and sickly dogs!

echidna · 10-14-2002, 06:24 PM

Are there any BBC fans who remember the Goodies episode in which Graeme decided to win Crufts with Frankenfido ?

10-14-2002, 08:20 AM	#1
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Is breeding immoral? (animals, not humans) I was at the local pet store the other day, and was absolutely enthralled with the puppies. Adorable chihuahuas and black labs, all with AKC papers and what not. I got to talking to the lady behind the counter and she confided that the puppies were going to be put down but were rescued just in time. Apparently they were from a breeder who was upset that a few of the puppies didn't show the "correct" features that were desired in the breed, and decided it was best to just put them down rather than have to feed them - after all, why keep a dog around if you can't show it or breed it? This pissed the hell out of me - the guy basically runs a puppy mill (he's been arrested a few times) and when he decides the animals aren't up to par, he either shoots them himself or gets a vet to do the dirty work. So - is it immoral to breed animals for desired traits?

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10-14-2002, 08:48 AM	#2
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Most puppy mills exist because pet stores require a constant supply of cute purebreds and care very little for the health of the genetic stock. I have never heard of a legitimate breeder killing non-show quality animals. Quite the opposite, in fact. My family has bought several unshowable purebreds and not are they almost as expensive as their showy brethren, but every breeder insisted that they "stood by" their stock and would be glad to take the dog/cat back if for some reason we could no longer care for it. I suspect the pet store lady was giving you a cover story to justify the nauseating and all-too common pet store practice of buying animals from known puppy millers. The "rescue" story is an excuse, imo.

10-14-2002, 10:05 AM	#4
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	I'm afraid you've been taken in, Bree. If the breeder were so mercenary, and the puppies were healthy enough to be offered at a pet shop, why would he put them down when he could make money selling them? F Secondly, if the pet shop bought the puppies from a known outlaw breeder, who has been previously arrested, then he aiding and abetting a criminal, and his ethics are highly suspect (not that they aren't inherently by his running a "sad puppy in the little glass box" shop). This story, as livius suspects, is actually a common and widespread sympathy sales tactic used by chains all over the place. Never buy from a pet shop. There are many, many ethical breeders who will offer you a pet that is healthy, has been raised lovingly, and whose parents and siblings you can meet, so as to learn about their temperament and hereditary diseases, if any. This shop owner is just exploiting your trusting empathetic nature.

10-14-2002, 10:34 AM	#6
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	I know of many people who �breed� puppies and do so irresponsibly in order to make a quick $$. They don�t care about the health of the dog, breeding for temperament or attempting to minimize defects. I am disgusted by most pet shops and I won�t buy a dog from a pet shop. We researched many breeds and breeders before buying our Chinese Sharpei. We visited their kennels, we asked for referrals and we also did so for other breeds. A legitimate breeder WON�T sell to a pet store and they are very picky about whom they sell their dogs to. We had to sign a contract and legitimate breeders enforce those contracts. If your dog is defective � say they didn�t meet the health standards set by the breeder you can return the dog, and get a pick of a new puppy or a refund. I have heard of a German Sheppard breeder in Wisconsin who would put down any dog that wasn�t perfect, but I have found those types of breeders to be rare � the exception rather then the rule. If that pet shop is buying dogs from a �breeder� who has been arrested � well you shouldn�t buy a dog from him EVER. Dogs are beautiful animals but one that has been bred badly can all sort of defects, including temperament ones that could prove to be harmful or deadly to the owner and the poor dog. It�s immoral to attempt to play on your sympathies to make a quick buck. It�s immoral to purchase dogs from a man who breeds irresponsibly. It isn�t irresponsible to breed dogs for legitimate uses, with care and concern for their health and welfare. This weekend we attended an adoption outing for rescued Dobermans. We are applying for adoption for a 5 year old male that was left in the back yard to die. Hopefully we will get him, but we will have to wait and see. People shouldn�t purchase dogs just because they are cute as puppies. People should really research the breed and determine if that type of dog will really fit into their lifestyle. Too often dogs are returned for being dogs and the failure of their owners to discipline them appropriately. Dogs are an enormous responsibility and the decision to own one shouldn�t be entered into lightly. B

10-14-2002, 10:44 AM	#7
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	It sounds more like your friend rescues dogs. This is legitimate and there are people who are willing to �adopt� dogs (for a fee) even if they have defects. It�s much difficult of course because it�s a lot of hard work and carries potential risks that most people aren�t willing to take on. Usually someone like this is affiliated with a rescue organization and I have met some folks like this who rescue these dogs and put them up for adoption through their other animal related businesses: such as at the vet, or a dog obedience school. There are pet store owners who exemplify those who both galiel and I have spoken of and I don�t think any one was attempting to disparage your friend, especially in lieu of what you have said. There was one store close to my house that is despicable. It always has tons of dogs to sell, but when you go into his shop it really reeks of urine, etc. The dogs are kept in the back and you can kind of see them, but you can�t go back and browse them and this is a bit fishy to me. I wanted to buy all of the dogs he had just to get them out of that rat hole. It sounds like he is doing a good thing and it�s important to charge a fee in order to keep some of the riff-raff away AND to cover the fees from the good work he is doing for those animals. Brighid

10-14-2002, 10:51 AM	#8
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	If we leave puppy mills and their sick practices of careless breeding for quantity alone aside, I think the morality of breeding for traits is ambiguous. Dogs have been selectively bred for certain traits ever since the first wolf was tamed and on the whole, I don't find that immoral. I do question the obsession with aesthetics, however, particularly at the expense of the health of the individual animal and the long-term health of the breed. The bulldog is a good example of a dog which has had certain traits exaggerated for show purposes (the large head, for instance) to the point were they can no longer give birth without surgery. Dogs which have been bred for giantism (Great Danes, St. Bernards, etc) are known for hip and heart problems. Still, reputable breeders will do their utmost to ensure the genetic strength of their stock and it is possible to avoid these weaknesses with a modicum of care.

10-14-2002, 01:05 PM	#9
DarkDruid Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 131	One thing I find immoral is the breeder's association determining (seemingly at random) what traits are award-winning and what ones are not. Frankly, they are so detatched that some of the Newfoundlands are getting quite sickly and (frankly) ugly. One breeder of large dogs I know is now switching to smaller dogs because the breeding standars are causing stillbirths and sickly dogs!

10-14-2002, 06:24 PM	#10
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Are there any BBC fans who remember the Goodies episode in which Graeme decided to win Crufts with Frankenfido ?

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