Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LordMoneyG · 07-23-2002, 09:36 AM

Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to post my own opinions on this, but...
___________________________________
Suit Fights Reading of Islamic Book
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. (AP) � Three students and a conservative Christian organization have filed a lawsuit against the University of North Carolina, saying a requirement that freshmen read a book about Islam is unconstitutional.
The university is infringing on students' First Amendment right to religious freedom by requiring them to read ``Approaching the Qur'n: The Early Revelations,'' says the suit, filed Monday in federal court in Greensboro.
All incoming freshmen this year have been told to read the text, which includes 35 translated sections of the Quran, the holy book of Islam. They also are expected to attend discussion sessions Aug. 19.
School officials have said the subject is timely and informational, and that the reading requirement is not intended to promote Islam.
Last week, UNC amended its policy to say students who are offended by the book don't have to read it, but they are required to write a one-page paper stating their objections.
The lawsuit was filed by the Virginia-based Family Policy Network and three UNC freshmen identified only as John Doe No. 1, an evangelical Christian, John Doe No. 2, a Catholic, and Jane Roe, who is Jewish.
``Our long-term goal is to make sure the precedent is affirmed that you cannot force people to take a class about a religious text at a state university,'' said Joe Glover, president of the Family Policy Network, a nonprofit conservative group.
A university spokesman said school officials would not comment on pending litigation.
_________________________________

Whaddya think, Infidels?

- LMG

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: LordMoneyG ]

Jamie_L · 07-23-2002, 10:01 AM

Why do all Freshmen have to read the book? Is it part of a required course (Freshman English or something), or is it just something somebody cooked up?

As part of a course, sure, the university can have people read whatever they want. But just laying down a requirement for folks to read a book and discuss it seems odd. If the goal is to teach some cross-cultural understanding, then it should be part of some organized freshman course requirement - like a comparative cultures course or something.

Jamie

mibby529 · 07-23-2002, 10:06 AM

Well, they're right that a government-funded college forcing its students to read a book on religion is unconstitutional, but they remain completely silent about Bush's "faith-based" programs, which most atheists view as unconstitutional and most non-Xian theists view as paternalistic.

And Xian groups even blame Indians when an oversimplified version of Indian beliefs is presented in schools, even though Indians don't even want converts.

Krieger · 07-23-2002, 10:10 AM

Huh?

Is it seriously ALL freshman? Or just philosophy majors or something?

Darwin's Finch · 07-23-2002, 10:27 AM

I suspect the requirement has to do with freshman orientation. When I was a freshman, we were required to read Flatland as part of the orientation process and then attend a discussion (which I skipped). This is probably the same sort of deal.

As for whether the requirement is constitutional, that would depend on the nature of the book. I'm no scholar of constitutional law, but it seems to me that a book whose concern is along the lines of "This is Islam" could be defended as a pedagogical tool for furthering cultural understanding so long as it doesn't cross the line and proselytize on behalf of Islam. Contrast that with, say, making students read the Quran itself (or the Bible), both of which make supposedly normative claims about their value as the true faith. That, clearly, would be unconstitutional.

As it is, I'm not familiar with the book in question. I'll run a search and see what I can dig up.

Steven S · 07-23-2002, 10:32 AM

I've been watching this story in the News & Observer in Raleigh. Personally, I don't see what the problem is--the issue is timely and most people don't know a damn thing about the qu'ran & islam. Also religious study is not the same as religious instruction, which those opposing this requirement don't seem to grasp. Hell, the classes I took in religion (biblical history & apocalypicism) convinced me more than ever that the Bible was a nonsensical piece of work than ever.

Steven S

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Steven S ]

Autonemesis · 07-23-2002, 10:37 AM

So apparently Christians can accept the concept that Freedom From Religion is an important part of the 1st Amendment guarantees, but only in the context of a religion that competes with Christianty...

I also note that unlike Newdow, these brave and faithful Christians declined to use their real names when they filed suit.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]

simian · 07-23-2002, 10:41 AM

What class?
Is it required?
Class content (comparative religion)?
I need more info before I can answer.
Is this issue real?

I went to what would appear to be the web page for the Family Policy Network: FamilyPolicy.com I saw nothing there on the issue. I went to unc.edu, found nothing there (only 2 pages showed for "islam" as the search word). There does appear to be a "First Year Initiative" or some such event on August 19, though I didn't see details.

Simian

Simian

Krieger · 07-23-2002, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darwin's Finch:

As for whether the requirement is constitutional, that would depend on the nature of the book. I'm no scholar of constitutional law, but it seems to me that a book whose concern is along the lines of "This is Islam" could be defended as a pedagogical tool for furthering cultural understanding so long as it doesn't cross the line and proselytize on behalf of Islam. Contrast that with, say, making students read the Quran itself (or the Bible), both of which make supposedly normative claims about their value as the true faith. That, clearly, would be unconstitutional.

Agreed.

mac_philo · 07-23-2002, 10:54 AM

It is not unconstitutional for a land-grant university to force students to read a religious text. The establishment clause states that congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion. Congress has no authority over the curriculum of this state university. The reason American universities are the world's best is because, at least compared to the rest of the world, our universities are not subject to the whims of our leaders.

This type of forced freshman reading is entirely normal at liberal arts colleges. I know that this is done annually at Reed and Macalester, no doubt among other schools.

This is an entirely timely and appropriate program. The deans and faculty can assign any works of literature they wish--it is not within the government's power to endorse or sanction their choices.

07-23-2002, 09:36 AM	#1
LordMoneyG Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 125	Quran Outrage at UNC Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to post my own opinions on this, but... ___________________________________ Suit Fights Reading of Islamic Book CHAPEL HILL, N.C. (AP) � Three students and a conservative Christian organization have filed a lawsuit against the University of North Carolina, saying a requirement that freshmen read a book about Islam is unconstitutional. The university is infringing on students' First Amendment right to religious freedom by requiring them to read ``Approaching the Qur'n: The Early Revelations,'' says the suit, filed Monday in federal court in Greensboro. All incoming freshmen this year have been told to read the text, which includes 35 translated sections of the Quran, the holy book of Islam. They also are expected to attend discussion sessions Aug. 19. School officials have said the subject is timely and informational, and that the reading requirement is not intended to promote Islam. Last week, UNC amended its policy to say students who are offended by the book don't have to read it, but they are required to write a one-page paper stating their objections. The lawsuit was filed by the Virginia-based Family Policy Network and three UNC freshmen identified only as John Doe No. 1, an evangelical Christian, John Doe No. 2, a Catholic, and Jane Roe, who is Jewish. ``Our long-term goal is to make sure the precedent is affirmed that you cannot force people to take a class about a religious text at a state university,'' said Joe Glover, president of the Family Policy Network, a nonprofit conservative group. A university spokesman said school officials would not comment on pending litigation. _________________________________ Whaddya think, Infidels? - LMG [ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: LordMoneyG ]</p>

07-23-2002, 10:32 AM	#6
Steven S Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 167	I've been watching this story in the News & Observer in Raleigh. Personally, I don't see what the problem is--the issue is timely and most people don't know a damn thing about the qu'ran & islam. Also religious study is not the same as religious instruction, which those opposing this requirement don't seem to grasp. Hell, the classes I took in religion (biblical history & apocalypicism) convinced me more than ever that the Bible was a nonsensical piece of work than ever. Steven S [ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Steven S ]</p>

07-23-2002, 10:37 AM	#7
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	So apparently Christians can accept the concept that Freedom From Religion is an important part of the 1st Amendment guarantees, but only in the context of a religion that competes with Christianty... I also note that unlike Newdow, these brave and faithful Christians declined to use their real names when they filed suit. [ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

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07-23-2002, 10:01 AM	#2
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Why do all Freshmen have to read the book? Is it part of a required course (Freshman English or something), or is it just something somebody cooked up? As part of a course, sure, the university can have people read whatever they want. But just laying down a requirement for folks to read a book and discuss it seems odd. If the goal is to teach some cross-cultural understanding, then it should be part of some organized freshman course requirement - like a comparative cultures course or something. Jamie

07-23-2002, 10:06 AM	#3
mibby529 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cali Posts: 170	Well, they're right that a government-funded college forcing its students to read a book on religion is unconstitutional, but they remain completely silent about Bush's "faith-based" programs, which most atheists view as unconstitutional and most non-Xian theists view as paternalistic. And Xian groups even blame Indians when an oversimplified version of Indian beliefs is presented in schools, even though Indians don't even want converts.

07-23-2002, 10:10 AM	#4
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	Huh? Is it seriously ALL freshman? Or just philosophy majors or something?

07-23-2002, 10:27 AM	#5
Darwin's Finch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 666	I suspect the requirement has to do with freshman orientation. When I was a freshman, we were required to read Flatland as part of the orientation process and then attend a discussion (which I skipped). This is probably the same sort of deal. As for whether the requirement is constitutional, that would depend on the nature of the book. I'm no scholar of constitutional law, but it seems to me that a book whose concern is along the lines of "This is Islam" could be defended as a pedagogical tool for furthering cultural understanding so long as it doesn't cross the line and proselytize on behalf of Islam. Contrast that with, say, making students read the Quran itself (or the Bible), both of which make supposedly normative claims about their value as the true faith. That, clearly, would be unconstitutional. As it is, I'm not familiar with the book in question. I'll run a search and see what I can dig up.

07-23-2002, 10:41 AM	#8
simian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 1,924	What class? Is it required? Class content (comparative religion)? I need more info before I can answer. Is this issue real? I went to what would appear to be the web page for the Family Policy Network: FamilyPolicy.com I saw nothing there on the issue. I went to unc.edu, found nothing there (only 2 pages showed for "islam" as the search word). There does appear to be a "First Year Initiative" or some such event on August 19, though I didn't see details. Simian Simian

07-23-2002, 10:54 AM	#10
mac_philo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Tax-Exempt Donor, SoP Loyalist Posts: 2,191	It is not unconstitutional for a land-grant university to force students to read a religious text. The establishment clause states that congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion. Congress has no authority over the curriculum of this state university. The reason American universities are the world's best is because, at least compared to the rest of the world, our universities are not subject to the whims of our leaders. This type of forced freshman reading is entirely normal at liberal arts colleges. I know that this is done annually at Reed and Macalester, no doubt among other schools. This is an entirely timely and appropriate program. The deans and faculty can assign any works of literature they wish--it is not within the government's power to endorse or sanction their choices.

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