Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 06-11-2003, 11:40 PM

I asked this question of Magus in another thread, but I'd like to pose it to all Xians here.

Let's look at one of of God's OT Laws. I don't know if you're a parent or not, but suppose you had a child and that child cursed you. Well, that child would be breaking God's Law, right? Bad kid.

But what did the OT law say to do about that?

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

My question: Imagine that you were alive 2500 years ago, living as a Jew under the Law. Would you kill your child, or even allow your child to be killed, if he or she cursed you, because it was God's Law? And keep in mind that, if you didn't do that, or even prevented it from being done, you would be breaking God's Law. "He must be put to death". So would you obey God's law and kill your child for cursing you?

And don't bother with the bit about "that's the OT law, Jesus fulfilled it!" Jesus condoned the law, and said that any that broke even the least of them was guilty - and that would include not killing your own child for cursing you. Besides, the God who handed down the OT law is supposed to the the same God of the NT - Jesus even.

Thor Q. Mada · 06-11-2003, 11:51 PM

Mageth,

In my opinion, you cannot transpose yourself 2000 years plus, and imagine what you would have done, because you are living in different times and are carrying an entire different baggage than the people living then.
If you would "live" meet people from that time period, you would probably go to the other side of the street, and not only because of the smell. We all like to be proud of our ancestors , but apart from DNA we have very little in common with them. Education makes the man. Not the clothes.
I know what you try to achieve and I like it, but I feel this will not lead to much, apart from getting our really boring friend Magus55 back on his saddle. What a life must this guy have. Sooo full of frustrations and complexes. Sooo desperately klinging to what he calls "faith".

seebs · 06-12-2003, 12:10 AM

I think your arguments got tangled; the "we are not under the law" argument (which I think you misunderstood) is obviously not applicable to the hypothetical situation you describe.

As to which... I have no idea. I don't know what "curse" means in this context; are we talking the general little-kid "I hate you", or some kind of more serious thing, or what?

I don't think I can really answer the question. "I" cannot be transposed there; had I been there all my life, I would be someone else, in any sense we can describe or observe.

winstonjen · 06-12-2003, 12:43 AM

I think the only thing that could make people do the horrible things that the OT laws demand of is brainwashing, coercion and blackmail.

seebs · 06-12-2003, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
I think the only thing that could make people do the horrible things that the OT laws demand of is brainwashing, coercion and blackmail.

I think this is naively optimistic about humanity; we have a real bugger of a mean streak.

winstonjen · 06-12-2003, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
I think this is naively optimistic about humanity; we have a real bugger of a mean streak.

Well, like I mentioned in the other thread, it's easy so long as you're not the one being tortured for eternity (or executed, as the case may be).

wildernesse · 06-12-2003, 07:20 AM

I can't answer that question--the Jewish culture 2500 years ago is as foreign to me as the culture of space people from the center of the universe. I am unable to understand the way it shaped their everyday lives and how they actually viewed inter-personal and supernatural actions in anyway that is not shaped by the culture that I was reared in.

--tibac

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 07:30 AM

In my opinion, you cannot transpose yourself 2000 years plus, and imagine what you would have done, because you are living in different times and are carrying an entire different baggage than the people living then.

I understand your point, but I doubt if the love of a parent for a child was different 2500 years ago than it is now. And to most Xians, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so YHWH that commanded Jewish parents to kill their rebellious children is the same God that they serve today. Jesus is, in some weird way, the same God that passed down that Law.

Xians today consider obeying god, following god's word of utmost importance to living a holy life. Most of them consider the god of the OT the same god as the one they're serving today. But they think the OT laws (or some of them, anyways; they seem to be a bit selective on which they're actually willing to follow) no longer apply. However, to a loving Jewish parent 2500 years ago, the law would apply.

So the question is addressed at what the Xians of today would do in response to such a command, but in essence it's asking what a parent, any parent, should do in response to such a command. Should one obey a god that requires you to kill your child, the child you (hopefully) love as a parent should, for cursing you? I think (hope, anyway) that most or all parents would consider it wrong, unthinkable, to kill their child, or to allow their child be killed, for "cursing" his parents (in response to seebs' point, no matter what "cursing" is defined as), whether God commanded it or not.

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 07:46 AM

Once again: what does culture, or time difference, or anything, have to do with the love of a parent for a child? Such a basic, instinctual love transcends culture. I have a son; the love I feel for him is not cultural.

If you feel, today, that it would be wrong to kill the child you love, or have your child be killed, for cursing you, why do you think the culture of 2500 years ago would change that love, that feeling of wrongness? The only reason one would do it is because God's Law commanded it, and not to do it would be to break God's Law. So what kind of God would establish such a law, or allow such a law to be established?

If the OT Laws were truly from god, as some claim (including the bible), why would god pass down a law that establishes (or codifies) a culture that required a child to be killed for cursing his parents? If they weren't from god, why would Jesus, supposedly God, condone them if he didn't approve of him?

Mageth · 06-12-2003, 07:53 AM

I think your arguments got tangled; the "we are not under the law" argument (which I think you misunderstood) is obviously not applicable to the hypothetical situation you describe.

Of course not; that's why I recommended not bringing it up.

As to which... I have no idea. I don't know what "curse" means in this context; are we talking the general little-kid "I hate you", or some kind of more serious thing, or what?

What difference does it make what "curse" means? If you're a parent, you should have an idea. Kill the child you love or have him be killed for cursing you, or disobey God's Law and protect your child? Which is it?

I don't think I can really answer the question. "I" cannot be transposed there; had I been there all my life, I would be someone else, in any sense we can describe or observe.

Forget culture, forget the problem of transposition, it's a straightforward question: kill the child you love for cursing you, or disobey God's Law? Which should one, whether you or a hypothetical "other" in another culture, who believes in, loves, and strives to serve the God of the Bible, do?

06-11-2003, 11:40 PM	#1
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Question for Xians - what would you do? I asked this question of Magus in another thread, but I'd like to pose it to all Xians here. Let's look at one of of God's OT Laws. I don't know if you're a parent or not, but suppose you had a child and that child cursed you. Well, that child would be breaking God's Law, right? Bad kid. But what did the OT law say to do about that? Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. My question: Imagine that you were alive 2500 years ago, living as a Jew under the Law. Would you kill your child, or even allow your child to be killed, if he or she cursed you, because it was God's Law? And keep in mind that, if you didn't do that, or even prevented it from being done, you would be breaking God's Law. "He must be put to death". So would you obey God's law and kill your child for cursing you? And don't bother with the bit about "that's the OT law, Jesus fulfilled it!" Jesus condoned the law, and said that any that broke even the least of them was guilty - and that would include not killing your own child for cursing you. Besides, the God who handed down the OT law is supposed to the the same God of the NT - Jesus even.

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06-11-2003, 11:51 PM	#2
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Mageth, In my opinion, you cannot transpose yourself 2000 years plus, and imagine what you would have done, because you are living in different times and are carrying an entire different baggage than the people living then. If you would "live" meet people from that time period, you would probably go to the other side of the street, and not only because of the smell. We all like to be proud of our ancestors , but apart from DNA we have very little in common with them. Education makes the man. Not the clothes. I know what you try to achieve and I like it, but I feel this will not lead to much, apart from getting our really boring friend Magus55 back on his saddle. What a life must this guy have. Sooo full of frustrations and complexes. Sooo desperately klinging to what he calls "faith".

06-12-2003, 12:10 AM	#3
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I think your arguments got tangled; the "we are not under the law" argument (which I think you misunderstood) is obviously not applicable to the hypothetical situation you describe. As to which... I have no idea. I don't know what "curse" means in this context; are we talking the general little-kid "I hate you", or some kind of more serious thing, or what? I don't think I can really answer the question. "I" cannot be transposed there; had I been there all my life, I would be someone else, in any sense we can describe or observe.

06-12-2003, 12:43 AM	#4
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	I think the only thing that could make people do the horrible things that the OT laws demand of is brainwashing, coercion and blackmail.

06-12-2003, 07:20 AM	#7
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	I can't answer that question--the Jewish culture 2500 years ago is as foreign to me as the culture of space people from the center of the universe. I am unable to understand the way it shaped their everyday lives and how they actually viewed inter-personal and supernatural actions in anyway that is not shaped by the culture that I was reared in. --tibac

06-12-2003, 07:30 AM	#8
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In my opinion, you cannot transpose yourself 2000 years plus, and imagine what you would have done, because you are living in different times and are carrying an entire different baggage than the people living then. I understand your point, but I doubt if the love of a parent for a child was different 2500 years ago than it is now. And to most Xians, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so YHWH that commanded Jewish parents to kill their rebellious children is the same God that they serve today. Jesus is, in some weird way, the same God that passed down that Law. Xians today consider obeying god, following god's word of utmost importance to living a holy life. Most of them consider the god of the OT the same god as the one they're serving today. But they think the OT laws (or some of them, anyways; they seem to be a bit selective on which they're actually willing to follow) no longer apply. However, to a loving Jewish parent 2500 years ago, the law would apply. So the question is addressed at what the Xians of today would do in response to such a command, but in essence it's asking what a parent, any parent, should do in response to such a command. Should one obey a god that requires you to kill your child, the child you (hopefully) love as a parent should, for cursing you? I think (hope, anyway) that most or all parents would consider it wrong, unthinkable, to kill their child, or to allow their child be killed, for "cursing" his parents (in response to seebs' point, no matter what "cursing" is defined as), whether God commanded it or not.

06-12-2003, 07:46 AM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Once again: what does culture, or time difference, or anything, have to do with the love of a parent for a child? Such a basic, instinctual love transcends culture. I have a son; the love I feel for him is not cultural. If you feel, today, that it would be wrong to kill the child you love, or have your child be killed, for cursing you, why do you think the culture of 2500 years ago would change that love, that feeling of wrongness? The only reason one would do it is because God's Law commanded it, and not to do it would be to break God's Law. So what kind of God would establish such a law, or allow such a law to be established? If the OT Laws were truly from god, as some claim (including the bible), why would god pass down a law that establishes (or codifies) a culture that required a child to be killed for cursing his parents? If they weren't from god, why would Jesus, supposedly God, condone them if he didn't approve of him?

06-12-2003, 07:53 AM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I think your arguments got tangled; the "we are not under the law" argument (which I think you misunderstood) is obviously not applicable to the hypothetical situation you describe. Of course not; that's why I recommended not bringing it up. As to which... I have no idea. I don't know what "curse" means in this context; are we talking the general little-kid "I hate you", or some kind of more serious thing, or what? What difference does it make what "curse" means? If you're a parent, you should have an idea. Kill the child you love or have him be killed for cursing you, or disobey God's Law and protect your child? Which is it? I don't think I can really answer the question. "I" cannot be transposed there; had I been there all my life, I would be someone else, in any sense we can describe or observe. Forget culture, forget the problem of transposition, it's a straightforward question: kill the child you love for cursing you, or disobey God's Law? Which should one, whether you or a hypothetical "other" in another culture, who believes in, loves, and strives to serve the God of the Bible, do?

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