Opus36

I agree 100%. We would be no better then the fundies out there trying to convert us.

villainess

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

I don't think it's wrong to try to convert or deconvert people, because so long as you don't use drugs, lies, or coercion (which would be a violation of other applicable laws and ethics) you can't do it _to_ them. All you're doing is engaging in persuasive communication. It might become annoying if it's done in a way that is unduly persistant, naggy, whiny, or passive-aggressive. But there's absolutely nothing wrong that I can see with presenting fact and rhetoric and seeing what comes of it.*

If the OP's girlfriend really is "an adult who has a right to her worldview" then she is also mentally capable of taking incoming information and adopting or discarding it according to her own judgement. If he goes too far and annoys her, well, he could lose her as a girlfriend, but it sounds like that might happen anyway. That's a risk that he needs to decide if he wants to take.

That said, the only time I ever deconverted someone that I know of was a case of "relationship evangelism", not preaching. That is, the fundie girl I was friends with decided that being a Trenchcoat Mafia Princess with me looked like a better time than wearing a Promise Ring and carwashing for missionary fundage. Acting self-assured, even a little arrogant, and like you are having fun, seems to make most Homo sapiens think you're on to something. For good or for ill.

the_villainess

*It's interesting to note in this context that I have always been somewhat suspicious of "I know something you don't know" occultists and "well, you'll find a path when you're spiritually advanced enough" New Agers. Although I recognize that the trad fundies are actually far more dangerous politically at the moment, and have many other problems with their worldview, wanting to share knowledge strikes me as a better impulse than wanting to hoard said knowledge and smirk at those who don't have it. It just needs to be tempered by the humility to know you might be mistaken and a disinclination to use guns and bombs and anthrax. And a willingness to get off of people's ears if they indicate a lack of interest, of course.

leftfist

Thanks all for the replies, except yguy, who I suspect is being deliberately inflammatory and ridiculous.

The moderators here seem to be really into moving posts around...

beth

Well, the mods moved it in here so that you would no longer get replies from people like Yguy. I really do feel for you. Have you discussed how this makes you feel with your girlfriend?

Bumble Bee Tuna

I'd say deconversion is essentially out of your control. They are either faithful in the face of reason or they're not. If your arguments don't convince her, there's not really a way to somehow improve upon them and get the job done. The success of deconversion depends entirely on her mindset.

As for morality of proselytizing, I don't see anything wrong with it providing you have certain rules in place. If she doesn't want you to, it's wrong. If she lets you though there's noting wrong with it. There's something wrong with missionarying to strangers' houses, of course- namely that you're disturbing them. But is there anything wrong with a guy on the street corner handing out Bibles? IMO no, he does you no harm. There's something wrong with the street preachers who yell on a loudspeaker about fire and brimstone, though. It's all a matter of how intrusive the proselytizing is.

-B

Pyrrho

Regarding your first two questions, yes, by presenting information for the person to consider. Something that may or may not be useful in your particular case can be found at the links below.

As a side comment, it seems completely bizarre and hypocritical for people to say that you should not try to persuade someone of something, when, of course, that is exactly what they are trying to do when they post here, telling you that you should not try to convince people that their religion is false. If you should not "deconvert" someone from one opinion or set of opinions to another, then you obviously should not be posting at web sites like this one. The whole point of posting anything at all is to convince someone of something, which, if effective, always converts them from one set of beliefs to another.


Additionally, people's beliefs do not affect themselves alone, but they affect all of us. This is because beliefs affect actions, and actions affect others. So what someone believes is a legitimate concern of others. For more on this, see:

http://ajburger.homestead.com/ethics.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931333076/

SharonDee

To borrow your phrase, Pyrrho, I have to say "it seems completely bizarre and hypocritical" to tell theists they may not witness nor proselytize around these parts... then turn around and advocate doing that very thing to Christians.

As insulting as we find conversion attempts, what justifies our "deconverting" someone else? So we're convinced our way is better... that's long been their rationale for trying to change our minds.

I fail to see how turn about is fair play.

GunnerJ

As far as I'm concerned, I don't have a problem with either atheists or theists trying to persuade people over to their way of thinking. Problems only start wehn the subject of the persuasion says "no thank you, not interested" and the (de)conversion attempts continue.

Qinopio

Reading the Bible is an observation - something seen with her eyes - just like anything else.

This was the question that got me to start thinking critically about my beliefs, maybe it'll help her:

If you woke up one day and found that the entire world you knew was a simulation/dream/etc, would you retain your faith? Even though all of the evidence that you once cited - including the life of Jesus - would be irrelevant? Is there any way to prove we're not in a simulation or a dream? Does this mean there's a chance, however small, of your faith being misguided?

Pyrrho

First of all, I am not a moderator and am not in any way involved in running this site. I only post messages when I feel like it, so any policy decisions have nothing to do with me.

As for having places devoted to specific purposes, I see no problem with that. I would never go into a church and be disruptive of the religious service there. To put this another way, there is a time and place for things (you might want to look at Ecclesiastes Chapter 3). As for the policies of Internet Infidels, they allow attempts to try to convert people to Christianity (or any other religion) on their philosophical message boards. How many religious organizations provide a forum for such purposes? The Internet Infidels only reserve a section for not allowing such practices. It is almost as if they believed in the Bible, and were following Ecclesiastes....

(Note to moderators: With something as long as the Bible, it would not be surprising if there were a few things in it that were true, would it? It would be difficult to write such a long book without including a couple of truths in with all the lies.)

I personally don't have a problem with a believer trying to convince others to believe. Why wouldn't they? I only object if it is done in an inappropriate manner, or in an inappropriate place, or at an inappropriate time. As for others who want everyone who disagrees with them to be quiet, this is unrealistic and, in my opinion, very childish. If people say anything at all, they will be saying something with which someone will disagree. If you have a problem with people saying things with which you disagree, that is your problem, not mine.

You state: "As insulting as we find conversion attempts..." Speak for yourself, not me. I don't find it insulting that someone would try to convince me of something that they believe to be true. My question is, why would you?