leftfist

Has anyone here ever persuaded a Christian to Atheism, or at least to doubt the Bible as the literal word of God? If so, how?

This is normally not something I would bother with, but there is one person who I really need to convince about this.

She claims to believe because of faith - faith being "evidence of things unseen," whatever that means. I can't persuade her with simple real world observations or science because she is completely willing to deny what she sees with her eyes in favor of what is written in the Bible. At one point I thought I could simply learn more about the Bible, and point out errors and contradictions - surely that would persuade her that the Bible is not the infallible and literal word of God? But no. Some errors and contradictions she explains away with complicated and convoluted explanations that ignore the plain meaning of the text. Some others she essentially says "I can't account for that apparent error, but I know that it only SEEMS to be an error, and I know that the Bible is the word of God."

She can't really give me a coherent explanation of what exactly this faith is and how it has so convicted her that this nonsense is true.

She is otherwise a very intelligent young lady.

Is there anything to be done in the face of such irrational conviction?

Metacrock

Good for her! Tell her to read my website. You read it too!

http://www.geocities.com/Metagetics


she can learn how to defend the faith, you can learn to wise up (just kidding).


btw I'm a leftist. I'm a social democrat but I used to be a Trotskist

Dark Jedi

Biblical inerrancy is a matter of faith. If her faith is unshakeable, you will not convince her. At most you will gain an admittance that the translations of man have gone awry, but the spirit of the word remains true.

So long as you are not causing offense, it is a good way for both of you to learn a lot about religion, holy texts, and debate.

Peter Kirby

I am sending this to General Religious Discussions.

best,
Peter Kirby

Immaculate Deception

...it would help to approach the subject from the view point of "Why should you follow Christianity and not other religions?

It seems to be easier for a person to apply critical thinking to another religion rather than her own. The key is for her to start that questioning process because it's obvious that, while she is intelligent, she's protecting her religious beliefs from the same thought processes that she uses for her other life experiences. Personally, that's the way that I had to approach it because I had been so indoctrinated. And it sounds as if they've done a 'good' job of doing that to her, too.

Eventually, I was asked by a friend to read 'Autobiography of a Yogi' by Parmahansa Yogananda, who was supposedly divinely inspired, an avatar. I was still undecided about religion at that point, but reading that book pushed me over to the other side. After all, it seemed completely ridiculous to me that these things Yogananda wrote about could have occurred (visions, levitation, multiple bodies, saints that don't eat, ones who can materialize items at will. etc. etc...). So, if I reject all of these miracles that supposedly occurred, why exactly should I believe that the somewhat similar miracles in the bible occurred? Where do I draw that line and why? It's a simplistic approach, I know, but...it worked for me.

But then again, maybe she won't reject his writings and she'll start meditating 8 hours/day. whoops! Eek! Now THAT would be something...

Anyhow, that's just my .02.

good luck!

ID

yguy

Well isn't this heart-warming. Christians witnessing to non-Christians isn't enough. Now the atheists figure turnabout is fair play.

A pox on both your houses, you hoarders and wasters. Here's hoping you end up putting each other in the hospital for a good three months.

girlwriter

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yguy:
A pox on both your houses, you hoarders and wasters. Here's hoping you end up putting each other in the hospital for a good three months.[QUOTE]

Well, maybe you should introduce her to IIDB, then she can see for herself what excellent people infidels are, and compare them to the compassionate, loving, humble, turn-the-other-cheek Christains she encounters here.

christ-on-a-stick

Well said, girlwriter. Feel the Xian love... I swear sometimes the theists (of whatever freaky-deaky stripe) do a better job of discrediting the claims of theism than we atheists do...

Conchobar

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leftfist
Has anyone here ever persuaded a Christian to Atheism, or at least to doubt the Bible as the literal word of God? If so, how?

I don't know. I have had many debates over the years with theists, presenting my arguments, the history of Christianity that most Christians were never taught. Some simply deny it all as lies or Satan's propaganda. Others disappear, and I don't know what happened to them. Perhaps the felt creeping doubts and left to seek security in fellow hard core believer's forums. I sometimes worry about converting a rigid fundamentalist because of its similarity to certain mental illnesses. It may be a defence mechanism, a thin membrane separating them from psychosis. It would make me feel very guilty if they did become psychotic or schizophrenic. In my medical practice, I saw patients who lost belief, then decompensated, irrational, delusional, hallucinatory, and grandiose. Their delusion was irrationally packed with Christian symbolism and metaphor, sometimes thinking Jesus was "in them" or "is the person." I never remember a pschotic agnostic or atheist. In some cased the decompensation causes mothers to kill their Satan possessed children or shoot people randomly, or blow up the Oklahoma City Federal Building with a copy of the Bible on their truck front seat.

This is normally not something I would bother with, but there is one person who I really need to convince about this.

I thnk Jesus realised it sometime on a Friday afternoon.

She claims to believe because of faith - faith being "evidence of things unseen," whatever that means.

If you can't see it or test it, it must be real, eh? That is sadly the reasoning behind much of religion.

I can't persuade her with simple real world observations or science because she is completely willing to deny what she sees with her eyes in favor of what is written in the Bible. At one point I thought I could simply learn more about the Bible, and point out errors and contradictions - surely that would persuade her that the Bible is not the infallible and literal word of God? But no. Some errors and contradictions she explains away with complicated and convoluted explanations that ignore the plain meaning of the text. Some others she essentially says "I can't account for that apparent error, but I know that it only SEEMS to be an error, and I know that the Bible is the word of God."

You must remember that religion is emotion not rational or intellectual. The emotions are fear and hate. They fear death. The Biblical Mythology promises the delusion of immortality. Losing immortality is very frightening once you have believed it. That leads to hatred of those who threaten you immortality. That includes Atheists and Agnostics. We, by our very existence, and apparent rational thinking, poses doubts in their minds, about immortality and the God who guarantees it. We threaten the reality of their invisible god and the immortality which is also equally invisible and lacking in evidence. They see us as dangerous enemies. One way to fight us and fight their fears is to convert us. Being generally very unsuccessful to convert sceptics to theists, frustration breeds the fear leading to hatred of all dissenters.

She can't really give me a coherent explanation of what exactly this faith is and how it has so convicted her that this nonsense is true.

It is incoherent, but that is not as important as picking out of context a few ambiguous verses that seem to confirm their god in their minds. It is hearsay but important because it is their only way to justify God who guarantees their immortality. That is a very emotional issue. We fear death knowing that it is all over in a century or less. But to loose immortality is so much more. It is far far more than us losing a silver ring but they losing a basket of diamonds, emeralds, rubies, 100,000 tonnes of pure gold, her looking like Catherine Zeta-Jones for eternity. Damn, I would like to believe in that myself. I just can't get it past my rational brain's scrutiny.

She is otherwise a very intelligent young lady.

Intelligence is not what is deficient. Fundies can be quite sharp. But the difference is in the mechanism of thinking. If it is emotional and intuitive with weak rational-logical imput, the irrational mythical delusions are more likely accepted. This is expecially when there are benifits like imagined immortality. The Agnostic or Atheist may be no smarter in IQ but he/she thinks in logical syllogisms, critically analysies all ideas, questions assumptions, and rejects ideas that do not pass the rational test. They tend to reject Gods and souls, and immortality. "Some" Atheists say the God definitely doesn't exist. Weak Atheists say that they don't believe in the existence of god. We agnostics say that there is no evidence for God, leprechauns, goblins, demons, souls, immortality, and little green space aliens. Therefore we feel that it is not worth considering the issue, and say "I don't know."


Is there anything to be done in the face of such irrational conviction?

No. I think the process is a mix of genetic and brain structural differences between hard core gullibles who are obligatorily religious and hard rationalists who are Atheist or Agnostic. That leave a larger middle group with transitional brains (varying weakness of logic and reason balanced by partial gullibility but not blind gullibility of the Fundamentalist brain. These are the broad silent majority who may convert or deconvert. It sounds like your friend is wired for religion and debate or rational explanations will not work.

Conchobar

yguy

I'm not sure exactly what you're objecting to. Is "witnessing" somehow less odious when it is practiced by atheists?