emphryio

I agree with Buffman.

I disagree in general with this idea, (that will certainly never die), that the more capitalism the better.
How about moderation between competition and cooperation?

I can see many really bad things happening with these school vouchers. (Chaos maybe?) Too many bad things to go into.

Stephen Maturin

Tell it like it is, bruh!! Dickless vermin that they are, they've been purposely trying to starve the public education system to death for decades. When school districts all over the state were circling the drain, exactly as they wanted, it was time to "do something." Their solution: funnel public money to religious private schools through a conduit - parents.

Long as we're at it, fuck Harry Michel, the state Democratic party chairman who gave away the whole goddamned store to the refucklickans back in the 80s.

OCLonghorn

That was a great myth/truth summary of the issue. But let me respectfully disagree with one of the 1st points. The constitutionality of government funds ending up in religious coffers.

I think where the money ends up cannot be considered. Once the money is refunded (ie-not "paid") to the taxpaying parent, the tracking of the funds should end. They could home-school, religious school, humanist school, whatever.

I DO agree (and thank you for pointing it out, because I had never considered it before) that maybe they are not entitled to getting their school tax money back just because they are not using the system. I knew the argument about those without kids in the system (ie-still benefit from having an educated local populace) and I had (I guess) always assumed that the situation was different if a taxpayer had a school-age child, but had them in private school.

HOWEVER, that then puts poorer families at a disadvantage. Assuming the old system of treating the private tuition as an additional expense, above and beyond the school tax, many poorer families had NO option. With vouchers, they would.

Does the competition that the vouchers are supposed to create apply between public schools too? There are public schools in my area that some would prefer over the one in their district and over many of the private schools.

I was pro-voucher (and atheist) before...now I'm a little more on the fence.

ohwilleke

Voucher schools do greatly remove the real problem with religion in the public schools --- that the government is taking sides on issues of religion. I don't have a problem with someone else giving their kids a religious education -- I do have a probably with a government declaring that Catholicism or conservative Christianity is the true religion.

Voucher schools also threaten to remove the volatility of religious issues in public schools. Many people in the United States want to raise their children in an religious environment but instead send their children to a public school because they can't afford to pay for a private school tuition (or take the time to home school) when they can get an education for free in public schools. Their legitimate desire to raise their children in a religious way gets in the way of the government's need to stay agnostic on religion. Vouchers are a way to solve both problems.

Indeed, the stance taken in many countries (Canada and England come to mind) is that allowing people who are willing to have a secular education to have a free ride, while denying people who for religious reasons cannot accept a religious education to pay for everything, is a denial of equal protection to religious objectors to the public school system.

Presumably, in a voucher system, the people who feel most strongly about a religious education for their children will give their children a religious education, taking a huge amount of pressure off the public schools from religious fundamentalists. Instead of lobbying the school board to ban Harry Potter, people would move their kids to the local Baptist school.

And, as long a vouchers are less than public school per pupil funding, it is reducing both the revenue and cost to public schools, with the net result that public schools have more money available per student. I don't see that taxpayers have room to complain, when, if no money went to religious education, they would be paying more for the education of that student.

Also, I'm not convinced that there would be a mass exodus to voucher schools in most places. It is true that more than 80% of private schools are religious, but it is also true that something like 85%+ of theists send their children to secular schools. The reason most private schools are religious now is because religious people are the primary group that has serious objections to the public school curriculum. Outside some catestrophically bad school systems in inner cities, most people are pretty happy with public schools.

Higher education is a good comparison. There, where the financial difference between public education and private education is less compelling than at the K-12 level, while there are many religious colleges and universities, there are also a great many secular private colleges and universities. The people who are sending their kids to public schools now don't want their kids to be going to Catholic or fundamentalist schools.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

reklaw67

The Supremes Pledge Allegiance to God.
Praise the Lord and pass the vouchers to the churches!
By Dahlia Lithwick
<a href="http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067471" target="_blank">http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067471</a>

This was an article I enjoyed concerning this topic.

"Justice Breyer restates the tension in his dissent: "Did [the First Amendment] simply require the government to give each religion an equal chance to introduce religion into the primary schools—a kind of "equal opportunity" approach to the interpretation of the Establishment Clause? Or, did that Clause avoid government favoritism of some religions by insisting upon 'separation'—that the government achieve equal treatment by removing itself from the business of providing religious education for children?""

"Is the "wall" between church and state, as conceived by Thomas Jefferson, truly a wall, or a drive-thru, wherein the Constitution is not violated so long as everyone has equal access to what's on the other side and so long as everyone freely chooses to order?"

Quotations take from the article given above.

Spazmatic

Look, while the voucher system will sprout religious schools like the bunnies in my backyard, imho there is nothing constitutionally wrong with them. They still cannot be used for openly indoctrinatory schools (as I understand it), aka schools will be religious, but still focused enough on education that a strong-willed atheist could go there and do fine. I mean, it's not like they'll be teaching Bible study all day. And, it may very well improve the education system (though I doubt it. TEA was supposed to do that).

Anyhow, you know that, if all goes well, one can probably expect business to start popping up charter schools like mad (I know they are different, but vouchers can be used in that case too, as I understand it). If so, we might end up with a very good, business-sponsored education system that will either do well or get cut. ;-) Of course, this could also lead to a cyberpunk world.