Doug Schiffer

I was quite elated to hear of the 9th circuit court decision on the Pledge. But quite frankly, my elation has turned to anger and sadness over the even more important Supreme Court ruling in favor of school vouchers.

Compared to the Pledge symbolic victory - this is the real meat and potatoes issue. Religious schools are now going to sprout like mushrooms, and you and I are all going to have to pay for it with our taxes.

Perhaps the ONLY way to turn this thing around in the near future is to start openly secular humanist/atheist/freethinker schools - at least in large metropolitan areas. Perhaps the shock of realization that the fundamentalists are having to pay for educating Johnny in an openly atheistic school will make them want to stop vouchers. We also need to insist on standards for these voucher schools - that they do not promote violence and that they teach at least some real science, math, etc - rather than just blast the bible at kids for a whole school day.

ManM

How does the voucher system work? If a parent chooses to put their child in a private school do they get any more money through vouchers than what they paid for public school in taxes?

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]</p>

Skeptictank

Well actually I'm sorta in favor of school vouchers. If you look at the Ohio case, the Cleveland school system is atrocious. The parents of children in those failing schools shouldn't have to wait while reform is slowly implemented and their kids suffer in the meantime. They should be allowed to get their kids out NOW! The voucher system lets them do that.
All the vouchers do is give the parents money to spend as they choose on educating their kids. Some, or many, may use that money to send their kids to religious private school, because they are the most numerous, some may not. As soon as the private religious schools start taking the federal money they will be subject to all sorts of federal guidelines that will keep them nominally in line.
I believe in the long run that a sort of "school market" will emerge with more private secular schools popping up. All in all, I don't see it as a violation of C/S as the voucher is given to the individual who can utilize it as he or she deems fit.

Buffman

<a href="http://www.au.org/vouchers.htm" target="_blank">http://www.au.org/vouchers.htm</a>

Private School Vouchers
Myth vs. Fact

Promoters of "educational choice" make many assertions about the positive effects of private school vouchers on America's educational system. Are these claims true? What would vouchers really do? Let's examine some of the common myths about vouchers and review the facts.

MYTH: Vouchers are a constitutional way to assist parochial and other private schools.

FACT: Vouchers result in tax dollars flowing to private sectarian schools. Sectarian schools account for 85 percent of the total private school enrollment in the United States. These schools serve as arms of religious ministries and integrate religious values and doctrine throughout their curriculum, indoctrinating students on controversial subjects such as abortion, creationism and the role of women in society.

Church-state provisions in the federal and state constitutions prohibit government from subsidizing sectarian education, either directly or indirectly. As a result, federal and state courts have repeatedly struck down various schemes designed to funnel tax dollars to religious schools. The fact that parents may "choose" the private school is legally irrelevant, because public funds will still be used for religious instruction. Voucher plans have been struck down in Florida, Maine, New Hampshire, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico and Vermont, even when some laws provided funds for public school choice.

MYTH: The people support vouchers and other forms of aid to parochial and other private schools.

FACT: Voters in 19 states and the District of Columbia have rejected various forms of parochial school aid in ballot initiatives. In 1998, Colorado voters defeated a tuition tax credit proposal 60 percent to 40 percent. In other recent actions, Washington voters disapproved a voucher proposal in 1996 by 65 percent to 35 percent, while in 1993, California voters trounced a voucher initiative 70 percent to 30 percent. State legislatures also have consistently voted down voucher proposals. Only three states have implemented voucher plans, all of which have been controversial and have resulted in drawn-out court battles. The driving forces behind vouchers are not parents, but sectarian school lobbies, the Religious Right and free-market ideologues.

MYTH: Vouchers will pay only for secular subjects at religious schools.

FACT: Because religious schools integrate religion throughout their curriculum, there is no way to prevent vouchers from paying for sectarian education. Voucher monies are unrestricted in their use and will pay for all aspects of a religious education, including costs associated with theological training and for religious items such as Bibles, icons and other religious material. In addition, vouchers will end up paying for discrimination. Because religious schools are permitted to hire co-religionists only and may require that employees' personal conduct conform to the tenets and teachings of that faith, vouchers will result in publicly supported employment discrimination, not only on religious grounds, but also on the basis of gender and sexual orientation.

MYTH: Vouchers will ensure "parental choice" in education.

FACT: When it comes to private schools, the concept of parental choice is meaningless. Private school administrators have the only real choice concerning which children are admitted to the schools and which are not. They may reject virtually anyone applying to attend or to teach in private schools. No voucher plan will change this fact.

MYTH: Vouchers will make public schools better by promoting competition in education.

FACT: There is simply no evidence to support this assertion. Public and private schools don't compete on an even playing field. Public schools must accept all children regardless of academic ability, physical handicap or family background. Private schools may reject any child with problems and enroll only the academically gifted. Also, competition implies there will be winners and losers; that may be fine for breakfast cereals, but it could be disastrous for schools. Public schools will improve only if our government officials and the public decide to make a serious commitment to educational quality. Diverting money from public schools to private schools will not achieve this goal, but will hurt the nation's public education system.

MYTH: The American public school system is failing our children.

FACT: New studies indicate that American students are among the best educated in the world. The U.S. has one of the highest graduation rates and U.S. schools steer more students to college than does any other country, even though many of those countries weed out mediocre students. Academic achievement among U.S. students - with the majority educated in public school - continues to rise. Moreover, according to a Money magazine study, private schools rank no better scholastically than comparable public schools. Recent studies of the Milwaukee and Cleveland plans have indicated that participation in choice programs does not result in significant educational improvement among students. Polls show that the vast majority of parents support the public schools their children attend and believe those schools are doing a good job. Vouchers will impede the public school system by draining the funding necessary to provide quality education for all children.

MYTH: Vouchers can be limited to certain private schools.

FACT: Courts have ruled consistently that the government may not play favorites among religions or classes of people. Attempts to limit vouchers to traditional parochial schools would only raise an equal protection claim of religious discrimination. Therefore, if enacted, voucher subsidies would be available for any private school, even those run by unconventional or extremist groups with theologies or political views that most Americans find distasteful.

MYTH: Vouchers will correct the injustice of "double taxation "for private school parents, who must pay to support a public school system they don't use.

FACT: "Double taxation" does not exist. Private school tuition is not a tax; it is an additional expense some parents have chosen to pay. All members of society are expected to support certain basic public services such as the police and fire departments, libraries and the public schools, whether they use them or not. (Childless couples and single people, for instance, must still pay school taxes.) We all have a vested interest in maintaining a strong public school system to make certain that our children are educated. Under a voucher plan, all taxpayers face double taxation. They have to pay for public schools, then pay increased taxes to make up for funds being channeled to parochial and other private schools.

MYTH: A voucher plan would empower poor families.

FACT: The better private schools charge high tuition. Because all current and proposed voucher plans provide limited funds, the vouchers will pay tuition for the poorest private schools only, many of which perform no better than public schools. Even then, few private schools are located in the nation's inner cities or other economically depressed areas. Fewer still are likely to admit children with disabilities or special needs. In any event, no voucher plan will benefit more than a small number of poor children. Public schools remain the only reliable educational resource for all children.

MYTH: Because private schools are cheaper to operate, vouchers will save taxpayer money.

FACT: Many private schools have lower operating costs only because they are subsidized by local parishes and public school districts. Taxpayers already pay for many services at private schools, which relieves those schools of significant financial obligations: transportation, textbooks, hot lunches, counseling and speech therapy, and those costs associated with educating disabled and special needs children. Under a voucher system, taxpayers will continue to pay for such services over and above the value of the voucher. In addition, public schools continue to bear the same operating expenses (and realize no savings) when select numbers of students transfer to voucher schools. In those instances, the public schools make do on less money.


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[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Buffman

Want more? Then read this!

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/nov96/molnar.html" target="_blank">http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/nov96/molnar.html</a>

(Extracts from another article)

In many areas, 80 percent of vouchers would be used in schools whose central mission is religious training.

Under a system of vouchers, it may be difficult to prevent schools run by extremist groups like the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan from receiving public funds to subsidize their racist and anti-Semitic agendas.

...the public school system stands out as an institution that unifies Americans. Under voucher programs, our educational system -- and our country -- would become even more Balkanized than it already is.

Indeed, voters have rejected all but one of the tuition voucher proposals put to the ballot since the first such vote over 30 years ago.

School voucher programs undermine two great American traditions: universal public education and the separation of church and state. Instead of embracing vouchers, communities across the country should dedicate themselves to finding solutions that will be available to every American schoolchild and that take into account the important legacy of the First Amendment.

(End extracts)

So now we have just witnessed the same group of people who helped place a man and administration, that failed to get the majority vote, into office dictating that it is constitutional for our government to funnel taxpayer monies into the coffers of religious cults so that they may brainwash more Americans into believing and supporting their superstitions and myths without having to pay a cent out of their own purse to do it. (Next will be the SCOTUS decision, 5-4, that the Faith Based Initiative is also constitutional.) I feel just as though our country has been herded back in time to pre-constitutional, colonial, America where church and state were one in nine of the 13 colonies. All we are missing is the vote to determine which religious cult will be the chosen one for each state. Let the religious and non-religious wars begin. Which cult can build the most Private Schools the fastest to reap this Supreme Court decision financial windfall? My money would have been on the Catholics until their recent effort to self-destruct. Now I suspect that it will be the various fundamentalist Protestant denominations tussling for our money to re-inforce their Creationist inerrant dogmas.

keitht

I think a basic premise of the whole voucher debate is the main cause of the argument. The idea that sending a child to a religious school with a voucher is taking away money from the public schools is simply incorrect (at least in Michigan). Public schools get their funding based on a set per pupil dollar amount and they only get money for the actual number of students attending. If a child goes to a private school, the public school isn’t getting the money, anyway. The money is probably setting in some government account somewhere getting spent on something that probably has very little to do with education.

I submit that the proper way to look at this issue is to consider the money the student's money (or more correctly, the parents'). The goal is to educate the child to a certain standard, not to blindly subsidize the public schools. I think this argument has less to do with the separation of church and state, and more to do with injecting some market forces into our education system to promote some competition and raise effectiveness. Its time for public education to take the hard medicine of capitalism and come into the 21st century. Some districts may suffer at first, but I guarantee you that if a market opens up where thousands of students have there own voucher allowing them to go to any school that provides an education to the required standard, then the services will be provided.

We have to take the power away from the socialist public school administrators and unions and give the power back to the real customers of the education system: the parents.

FYI: My children attend public schools, I would never send my children to a religious school, and my wife is a teacher in the public schools.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: keitht ]</p>

Berenger Sauniere

How will these Voucher Schools deal with evolution? Will Darwin be found in the library?

Buffman

keitht

Several of your points are clearly explained above.

I submit that the proper way to look at this issue is to consider the money the student's money (or more correctly, the parents').

Why is that a proper way to look at vouchers?

The goal is to educate the child to a certain standard, not to blindly subsidize the public schools.

OK! What standard? Whose standard? How is this standard monitored? What are the penalties for not meeting the standard? Should every child be given an equal opportunity to reach this standard?Are private schools selective? Are public schools selective? Are private schools required to meet state and federal safety/EO/Disability Act quidelines?

I think this argument has less to do with the separation of church and state, and more to do with injecting some market forces into our education system to promote some competition and raise effectiveness.

Why do you think that? Do you have any evidence that private schools do a better job of educating "every" child? Maybe their ability to select students might have an influence on results. Is that possible...even likely?

Its time for public education to take the hard medicine of capitalism and come into the 21st century.

Hmmmmm? Perhaps we can get ENRON to run the public school system. They were certainly a 21st century capitalistic operation. What do you know of the education systems in non-capitalistic nations? Our military organizations are socialistic and they do more educating than just about anyone in the capitalistic USA....and their lives (and ours) depend on them learning. Perhaps we should send them all to private companies for training/education. Of course that could get rather expensive. And guess what? a large percentage of those young men and women came out of the middle to lower end of your so-called failed public school system.

Some districts may suffer at first, but I guarantee you that if a market opens up where thousands of students have there own voucher allowing them to go to any school that provides an education to the required standard, then the services will be provided.

And I "guarantee" that if pigs could fly....(The only thing I have seen happening in this country are prices increasing as the bigger companies gobble-up all their competitors and pay their corporate biggies obscene annual incomes. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we are no longer a major, independent, industrial power. I have a feeling that you would a little too quick to blame that all on the labor unions.--Our public schools are not in the "business" of cutting each other's educational throats via competition. Their mission is to educate our children to be able to survive, prosper and be participating citizens in the 21st century and beyond. Private schools exist to make money or indoctrinate new generations with a specific religious dogma. However, Jesus never asked his disciples if they could read or write did he? All that was required of them was to believe in the supernatural. If they did, then the Lord would provide. He held his classes under the skies without any desks, blackboards, books, sprinkler systems, or football games. He also made his own food and beverage to give to the students and didn't have to buy at the markets. Now that's a cost effective operation in any century.

Polar Bear

I am all in favor of vouchers as long as they pay for tuition in secular private schools that are required to meet or beat the same standards of public schools.

No tax money for religious schools!

PopeInTheWoods

Ohio Refucklicans made sure Cleveland schools stayed sucky by fighting, then blatantly ignoring, the Ohio Supreme Court ruling that the Ohio school funding process was unconstitutional. So they created the "problem" that vouchers will "solve" (sort of how xianity creates the "problem" of sin that Jesus "solves"). Fuck Voinovitch, fuck Taft, fuck all the fucking Ohio Refucklicans!!!

Andy