fried beef sandwich

Hey niggle,

about being asked to say grace before meals, when I was in the coming out stage, I generally tried to defer and pass the buck to someone else. That usually meant saying, "no thanks" or "not today" or "I don't feel like it today" or "how about dad/grandpa? he should do it" to sort of force the head of household position of authority thing.

It was much easier when we were at large family gatherings and I was not expected to pray - usually when that happens (actually all the time now), I just fold my hands and start bowing my head until everyone else is down in prayer position. Then, I just stand there quietly with my eyes open. To make me feel less weird, I started people watching (a good way to keep an eye on my 2-year old nephew) and thinking about other things. The way I figure, if they see me opening my eyes during prayer, they can't say anything b/c they did too!

- fried beef sandwich

LLaurieG

(Laurie) You are bothered by "going through the motions of religious rituals like praying." So what? So what if your head is lowered, mouth shut, hands clasped? God isn't real, remember? Praying doesn't make god real. Also, consider: you don't know what other people are really thinking about. They could be thinking about the laundry. You're all engaging in a familiar little social ritual before you eat. So?

My family know I'm an atheist. Mom or my fundie nephew not only usually say grace, they have everyone around the table hold hands for it. I don't care. It's no skin off my nose. I don't make a scene because it doesn't matter! It doesn't make god real. I don't pray; I don't say amen; I'm not "betraying" my well-known atheism. Grace will be over in a few seconds. I'm secure enough in my infidel identity that I can wait, and mature enough in my emotional identity to not make a disruptive, distressing, unnecessary scene; hit them over the head, seize attention for atheism, make it all about me. Everyone knows I'm an atheist.

If you want to "come out" to your family, peruse the library here at Internet Infidels. Especially check out this thread: What Brought You to Atheism? http://www.iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...&f=55&t=000020
Here's another good essay: So You Don't Believe in God? http://www.maaf.info/downloads/chadsoyoudont.pdf Read up. Posting here was a good approach: I've gotten excellent feedback many times on this board. Good people here.

Above all, remember this. As an atheist, you are now master of your own cosmic fate, charting your own ethical course. How rudely or compassionately you handle communications with believer family members is on your head now. So if you're going to publicly don your atheist hat, give us a good rep!

niggle

I'm just checking and need to get to sleep soon, so I'll be quick and brief.

Yes, Niggle is from the Tolkein story.

Jennie, I encourage my sister to NOT tell our parents what's she's up to, but we have quite different approaches to our parents.

We all say the prayer, so just bowing my head wouldn't be considered participating and would be noticed. Plus, my grandmother, who is very Catholic, was there as well. Grandpa just died a few months ago and she is quite fragile emotionally.

I don't handle confrontation well in general, plus my mother is quite opinionated, loud mouthed, and thick headed (probably the source of my poor confrontation skills). I once mentioned that this country was not founded on religion, and she responded "well, the pilgrims came here for religious freedom, so it sort of was founded on religion." It's one of those, "stop now, rational conversation not possible" signs. She also still bothers me every chance she gets that I don't take Route A to work versus my perferred Route B. Don't want to deal with the constant annoyance of her trying to debate religion with me.

I maintain my opinion that if you don't want the truth, then you really don't deserve it. I realize that isn't very nice, but sometimes I feel being nice is a little overrated.

Thanks for the responses.

Rushianbeing

Niggle, I totally sympathize.

My husband is in a similar situation-he has been an atheist for the last 18 years, and his parents do not know. Well, it's more like, they highly suspect, but they're playing the ostrich game, with their heads firmly planted in the sand. He works with his parents every single day (he is in business with them), and he knows that if he were to completely come out and flat-out tell them that he's an atheist, his life would be made miserable until they died. They have proven this to be true by the way they reacted to a pro-choice letter I wrote to the local newspaper here-they got so upset about that that they talked trash about me to him to the point that they made him, their OWN SON, literally throw up, more than once. And no, they didn't once say ONE WORD to ME about the letter-they handled the whole incident in fine, hypocritical xian Southern Baptist fashion.

Anyway, I have a very common name (think John Smith common!), so I ended up allowing my husband to deny to them that I had written the letter, for his sake. BELIEVE ME, this just about KILLED me to do, but I figured my husband's physical and mental health were more important than my pride, and I wasn't about to let them do this to him. And NO amout of arguing or rationalizing or talking on my part would have persuaded them to be kind to him again, if I were a godless babykiller. (I didn't quite let them totally off the hook-I confronted his mother and told her that I thought what they had done to him was reprehensible, and I'd appreciate it that if in the future, if any of the family had a problem with me, they come to ME!!).

So now we all have this "don't ask don't tell" kind of policy regarding religion. My husband has not gone to church with his family once since he moved here to work with them almost seven years ago, so he KNOWS they suspect his views, but they would just rather not know the truth, so, as you say, he feels that they don't deserve it. And he knows that, while he does love them and they are basically kind people, that they are so incredibly bigoted and intolerant regarding religion that we would literally have to pick up and move away if his real views were known.

So, Niggle, we sympathize. I totally respect your right to not rock the boat, and I don't think it makes you a bad atheist. We don't bow our heads at family prayers, we don't go to church, we make comments here and there when the family says something so outrageous that we simply cannot let it go, but we don't shove our atheism in their faces. And we let it all hang out with MY family, who luckily are all freethinkers!!

Good luck!!

Rushianbeing

...I still write letters to the newspaper, I just use a pseudonym.

Max Demian

I agree. I think that too many atheists are doing themselves a disservice by not "coming out," because of some fear or other. Isn't a major part of atheism the rejection of the irrational status quo? Of course, some people will naturally be introverted and won't particularly care for the beliefs of others - but simply "staying in the closet" is simply too reminiscent of the way things 'used to be,' for me.

LLaurieG

(Laurie) Welcome to the board, Max. In my early years as an atheist, I agreed with you. I felt it was important as a matter of principle to speak up for atheism, to identify MY atheism to people; to, as you say, challenge the irrationality of religious belief when given the opportunity.

But context matters. There are large areas of the United States where the overwhelming majority of people are more religiously opinionated and bigoted than you can imagine. If it is learned that you are an atheist, you may be socially ostracized, cause (otherwise dear) family members severe anguish, and in the workplace, you might simply and quietly never be promoted again.

It is rational to NOT discount the very real, pragmatic difficulties a public declaration of atheism can entail in some places, under some circumstances. "Coming out" has to be handled gently sometimes. It's a little like being gay. Not everyone is open with the entire world about their sexual orientation. One's spiritual beliefs could also be considered a private matter.

Max Demian

Thanks for the welcome, Laurie. I do agree with you that it can sometimes be of benefit not to reveal one's views on organised religion, and, indeed, that it is definitely a matter of personal preference. However, I also think that it is reasonable to "come out" whenever it is practically possible and acceptable to do so. Perhaps there is a balance between avoiding persecution and "spreading the word," as it were.

Rushianbeing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LLaurieG
[B](Laurie)
But context matters. There are large areas of the United States where the overwhelming majority of people are more religiously opinionated and bigoted than you can imagine. If it is learned that you are an atheist, you may be socially ostracized, cause (otherwise dear) family members severe anguish, and in the workplace, you might simply and quietly never be promoted again.

Well, well, WELL said, LLaurieG. My husband and I live in one of those areas of the country. My husband runs a restaurant with his father and mother, and he comes home from work frequently frustrated that he feels constrained re. his religious (and political-around here, if you don't wanna kill all them ay-rabs, you're a commie bastard) views, but he knows that if word got out in this tiny Appalachian burg that the restaurant owner's son was an atheist (OR the restaurant owner's daughter-in-law), they would literally go out of business. I wish I were exaggerating, but unfortunately it is absolutely true. We struggle with this fact all the time, because we DO NOT want to just give in to the fundamentalist bullshit and let them win, but at the same time, if the family wants to remain financially stable, we HAVE to be discreet. And my poor husband has to put up with a Christian radio station on all day at work, and his mother running anti-choice fundraisers out of the dining rooms. It's disgusting but true.

Jennie

Oops. Sorry niggle, I misread.