Fastfalcon

and kids DO NOT have to say a prayer if they do not want to.

Fastfalcon

What is the establishment clause, anyway?

hezekiah jones

Please read the caselaw summaries at the link I provided above, then come back and make a point.

hezekiah jones

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

You quoted it yourself.

Godless Dave

It says Congress shall make no law. And in the 14th Amendment (which you helpfully quoted for us) it states:

"Privileges or immunities" are the rights guarenteed by the Constitution, so this amendment is saying that the states cannot make or enforce any law that abridges the rights given in the Bill of Rights and elsewhere in the Constitution. It extends the prohibition on Congress making such laws to the states.

As to separation of church and state, you're right, that phrase isn't in the Constitution. It doesn't need to be, because of the establishment clause. If a church isn't separated from the state, it's established.

Remember, the US declared its independence from England, which did have Christianity as its state religion.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]</p>

Godless Dave

Please answer this question which I posted above:

How would you like it if I were a teacher in your school, and at the beginning of homeroom I said "All rise and repeat this prayer of homage to Odin, the All-Father?"

Seriously, Fastfalcon, how would that make you feel? Even if you had the option of remaining seated and not saying the prayer?

Fastfalcon

Oh. I see now.

nogods4me

Somehow I doubt that. But try this on for size.

Islam is the fasting growing religion in the US and the world.

Some day, in the not to distant future it is likely that a sizeable political subdivision, a small city, a county, or such, will be majority muslim. How would you like the idea of the teachers stopping classes 5 times a day so all the students could unroll their prayer rugs and pray towards Mecca? How does that image sit with you FF? and if it were you, or your children in that school, who would you call? You are aware that the majority of the ACLU's lawsuits are brought on behalf of other believers and not atheists, aren't you? (someone here posted a link not too long ago concerning this).

Buffman

FastFalcon

It say Congress shall make no law. Congress. Sorry about screaming. I just get tired of hearing about "separation of church and state" which was a quote from Thomas Jefferson in one of his letters to a friend.

I suspect that you must be feeling like people are ganging up on you here. Please internalize that feeling. It is the identical one that I have felt all my life when supernatural believers attempt to tell me things that I know to be in error.

I doubt that you realize that your statement, that I quoted above, is not as accurate as it could/should be if you plan to offer any rational support for your position on this issue. You have not done your homework. Might I recommend that you start here and discover some of the accurate facts.

To paraphrase one of the radical Christian right's heroes, "Trust but verify." Evidently you have trusted your religious dogma teachers, but failed to verify what they taught you.

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg1.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg1.htm</a>

With just a little research effort on your part, you will find more accurate information about this issue at the Index page of the above URL than you have ever suspected was available. Good luck on discovering what is myth and superstition and what is not.

MOJO-JOJO

Because this is the typical human response to one being shown that he is completely wrong about something he fervently held to be true!

The first sign of a christian being successfully de-programmed.