sighhswolf

I am quite sure you got this off some site and have never even read the original from the Koran , because if you did you will easily see that this was revealed in connection with the time when the believers were driven out of their homes in Mecca and were still persecuted by the Quaraish. They were persecuted and killed and driven out.

They were even persecuted to the extent that when the believers fled to other countries the Quaraish would try and get them back so as to torture them some more.


This is in recoreded history as well. Look up on the Negus of Abbasinnia, where the believers fled too.

So these statements are in connection with self defense and hence to fight the unbelievers until the threat is gone.

Aslo the Quaraish have also broken a piece treaty at this time.

This is an example of how defense should be done.

Do yourself a favour and read up on the history and when certain verses were revealed and in what context.

All this verses you quote indicate nothing but self defense against a very hard agressor who wont stop at nothing and has to be stopped.

You ask, so what do muslims now do.

Well if the circumstances are the same, that is the muslims are persecuted and killed and driven away, they can then fight back only when they first established a state that can replace the bad oppressing state and second they can only fight if the persecutors are still persecuting them as the Quaraish did when they tried to get refugees back from countries giving them asylum.

This can all be found in history books.

So do yourself a favour and look it uüp.

Thanks

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: raindropple ]

To Raindropple,
I happened along and read your answer above to a post concerning Islam and it's perceived violent
history by most of the population of the western
nations.
If I may be so bold, I certainly do not give a rats behind what the Qu'ran says about anything to be absolutely truthful.
But........

It's interpretation by it's modern perveyors is the real question isn't it?
Just as many christian fundamentalists despise catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims etc. the same hatred and bigotry flows from the mouths of many of the zealots who hold power in fundamentalist Islamic countries.

How do you answer the charge that Islam in it's present form is a violent and oppressive religious belief whose primary leadership is dedicated to the destruction of western society and the United States in particular?

Of course we must not leave out the anti-semitism
that is rampant in the middle east.

April 26, 2002, 12:55 p.m.
Saudi Telethon Host Calls for Enslaving Jewish Women
From the Saudi Information Service.



(WASHINGTON DC) April 26, 2002 …The Saudi Information Agency has obtained a tape by prominent government official cleric Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik calling for enslaving Jewish women. The tape is called "a Monkey Desecrates Mosque," and was delivered in a Riyadh government mosque. The monkey refers to Jews.
Al-Buraik, a Wahhabi cleric, is closely tied to Prince AbdulAziz Ben Fahd, the king's youngest son, and member of the Saudi delegation accompanying Crown Prince Abdullah on his current visit.
Al-Buraik was the host of the two-day long telethon raising funds for Palestinians, which raised $109 million. He is also the host of "Religion and Life," a program on government television Channel One and on MBC television owned by Prince AbdulAziz Ben Fahd. Al-Buraik said on the tape that the money raised would go to Palestinian fighters.

The following are excerpts of the tape:

On the situation in the Palestinian areas he said:

Oh Believer, it's a wish, as much as it is pains, but we have hopes that the situation in Palestine will explode. No one dies before their day. How many Muslims have died in Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir, and Kosovo!!

Is it too dear to us that among our honorable beloved die as martyrs? Their death dates were written before their birth. That they die as martyrs. "Say even if were at your home, those who will die will walk to their death."

Which is a better choice, to de on your bed, or to die perseverant, fighting, not retreating. Which is better to suffer long before death many days, or taste death quickly?

Which is better to suffer a slow death, or die as a martyr in your way to heaven. A death that you will be forgiven on the first drop of your blood.

When life became perishes we started to drink humiliation many times over.

Oh Palestinian Authority, don't you see that you are tested once or twice a year? Then you don't learned or repent.

Isn't time yet to wage jihad, and call for holy war. Isn't time that Muslim countries which normalized relations with the Jews to cancel everything that happened from Madrid to Oslo, and Why River, which forbids the supplying of weapons to Muslims in Palestine?

The agreements which canceled jihad, and disassociation from non-Muslims, should all be demolished.

It's a call to close all embassies opened for the Jews in the land of Islam; it is call to end normalization with Israel.

What international resolution that the Jew respected, prepared by Christians.
On Jews and Christians he said:
People should know that Jews are backed by the Christians, and the battle that we are going through is not with Jews only, but also with those who believe that Allah is a third in a Trinity, and those who said that Jesus is the son of Allah, and Allah is Jesus, the son of Mary.

About America he said:

I am against America until this life ends, until the Day of Judgment;

I am against America even if the stone liquefies

My hatred of America, if part of it was contained in the universe, it would collapse.

She is the root of all evils, and wickedness on earth.

Who else implanted the tyrants in our land, who else nurtured oppression?

Oh Muslim Ummah don't take the Jews and Christians as allies.

Jewish women as slaves he says:
Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women? Why don't you wage jihad? Why don't you pillage them?

To listen to the entire tape open the below link:
<a href="http://media.islamway.com/arabic/images/lessons/burek/monkey.rm" target="_blank">http://media.islamway.com/arabic/images/lessons/burek/monkey.rm</a>

Of course the above is a rant from an extremeist.
But it goes without saying that the western nations do not print complimentary stories
dealing with middle east/western relations, why? because there are so few they are simply non-existant.
Should we examine the words of one of the great Islamic leaders?

"War is a blessing for the world and for all nations. The Koran says, "fight until all corruption and all rebellion have ceased."
The wars the prophet led against the infidels were a blessing for all humanity.
Imagine that we will soon win the war.
That will not be enough for corruption and resistance to Islam will still exist.
The Koran says, "War ! War! until victory !"
The mullahs with corrupt hearts who say that all this is contrary to the teachings of the Koran are unworthy of Islam.
Thanks to god our young people are now to the limits of their means putting gods commandments into action.
They know that to KILL THE UNBELIEVERS IS ONE OF MANS GREATEST MISSIONS."

Ayatollah Khomeini- An adress to the faithful, On the birthday of Mohammed, 1984.

Now the book itself which you were so quick to defend may in fact not uphold these bigoted
statements of hatred by zealots, but this is what is presented by modern leaders of the oppressive fundamentalist states of Islam who control what their people hear and see and control the interpretation of the Koran.
The real point is, it matters not what the book says because the enslavement of the population of Islamic believers by zealots who hold power does not permit them to interpret the words for themselves does it?

The religious leaders of nearly all countries harbor a driving ambition to excise all other religious beliefs from this world in which we live.
It is very apparent that without these so-called holy texts this world would be a better more secure and tolerant place to raise our children.
The christians and the Jews all have their doom sayers and the muslims are intent upon destroying
anyone who is not Muslim, and the hatred continues as it has for centuries......so dont try and paint Islam as peaceful because the muslims have as much blood on their hands if not more than the christians and the Jews.

It is beyond me how anyone could believe that religion in it's many and varied forms has been beneficial in any way for mankind.
The blood flows free and is deeply embedded in religion as a whole.
And to us non-believers all the religious nuts and zealots are contributing to the demise of life as we know it on this planet.

As I type this I am listening to CNN and another nutcase Pat Robertson telling American christians that Islam is violent and should be reigned in and destroyed and that the leadership of the Islamic nations are intent on destroying the American way of life.
Hate....hate...hate...and more hate all because of RELIGION.
I for one am very sick of the religious posturing
and mudslinging and name calling and the news stories covering the idiots calling themselves holy people.

Do you think that you can be "holy" while preaching death to those who do not adhere to your personal beliefs and/or god????

I'm sorry if I come across as being a little jaded
but all I see is what has been the history of mankind and the future of mankind all based on who's god is bigger and badder than the other.
Dont defend religious texts, because
the texts mean nothing in themselves....it is in the interpretation of those text and who controls the interpretation that is the reality of the situation.
Your reading is not my reading, your thoughts are not my thoughts, but if I have the means I can subject you to my readings and my thoughts and can force you to publically agree with me or face death.
Thats the reality.
Wolf

sighhswolf

Raindropple was kind enough to reply to me by Email the response follows.

I some how cant login now on the infidel site so I reply here for now.

You can post my answer to the site if you like.

"How do you answer the charge that Islam in it's present form is a violent
and oppressive religious belief whose primary leadership is dedicated to the
destruction of western society and the United States in particular?"


There is only one Islam.

This can be found in the Quran and can be understood if you really care to
find out. ( You could contact a mosque or check on the web etc.)

There is no thing like present day Islam or latter day Islam.

As for what Muslims do. Well I cannot anser for them what they do.

If they interpret Islam like that, that is there problem not Islam's
problem.

Do you understand the difference?

I can say for sure there are some people who are muslim who are doing things
that Islam do not presribe.

Though this has nothing to do with the doctrine and system of Islam.

Dont confuse the issue.

There is a doctrine and a sytem of life called Islam ( what Islam really is
about you can find out about this if you really want to) and there are
muslims who practice. These muslims are people and what they do is what they
do.

So if you say there are muslims in the world today who are really doing some
violent and bad things, then this could probably be the case.

Hope you understand.

Thanks

RD,

I understand that it is not acceptable to stereotype all muslims as terrorists.
I also am quite aware of the differing views/doctrines/interpretations of the Koran within Islam itself.

Do the majority of Islamic followers hold opinions as those stated above in my prior post?
Most probably not.
But the presentation/representation of Islam that is recognized by the western nations, comes from not the peace loving majority, but from the extremeist leadership.
That leadership speaks for Islam, and they have made it clear that in a fundamentalist Islamic country the population has no choice but to submit to Islam or face expulsion and/or death.

My point very simply is even though as you point out the practice of Islam and the interpretation of the Koran for the average muslim is totally different from the zealots, the zealots are in the seat of power and rule with an iron hand.
Even if there were 10 million Muslims practicing a peaceful and benign form of Islam, they do not hold power and cannot speak out against those who do, unless they leave their fundamentalist society
and adopt a home in a western nation.
So, in this way the actual practice of Islam cannot be seperated from the zeal and hatred of it's leadership.

This is not unique to Islam either.
It is a function of politics and control.
The leadership of all the major religions coupled with the political power base they have gained
gives them the opportunity to address their own
ambitions and use religion to accomplish their goals.
Nothing creates more emotion than religion and those who control major populations use this emotion to veil their intentions, and build support for their own agendas.
All they have to do is create a perception of religious intolerance (whether it actually exists or not) to gain unwavering support.
If you are on the side of a god, how can you be wrong?

Wolf

Walter_Mitty

Wolf writes:

Well said!

With all due respect Raindropple, that has to be one of the most inane statements I've seen in quite some time! If Islam is the alleged "religion of peace", I'd think it's "true" adherents would care what the so-called perverters of Islam are doing! Your non-caring attitude--in my opinion--makes you just as bad as those fundamentalist nutcases who kill in the name of Allah!

Also, it has everything to do with the doctrine and system of Islam. If the Islamic system were indeed perfect, the Middle East would be a vacation spot that ranks up there with Hawaii! As it stands, we've had 2,000 years worth of stupidity in the form of violence and blood shed.

sighhswolf

Hate is a powerful tool.
So is fear, irrational fear, inspired by leaders who spoon feed it to their followers until it grows into a monster that cannot be stopped.
It assumes an existance all it's own, and eventually begins to feed off itself.
There are always humans who know how to use that hatred and fear to further their own personal ambitions.
Then they loudly decry god this and god that ..........satan this and satan that....they are the "satan" those who would kill and destroy in the name of their god.
Who establishes the highest authority?
Men.........
Who speaks for whatever god they are presenting...
Men......
Who wrote the so-called "holy" books?
Is the babble signed and copyrighted by god?
How about the Koran? Does the dedication page say "to mankind with love and respect, Allah?

Too many ways to deceive....
Wolf