Sabine Grant

First of you are mixing Geo Theo 's answers with mine.... as far as the burden of proof being on God. Are you under the assumption that all theists live their faith the same way by attributing from one christian what all the others ought to think too?

Also your comment pertaining to " are you sure you are not an atheist" implies that you deny the belief in scientific facts for some theists. We are talking medical science... does one have to be an atheist to value medical research? I certainly hope that most theists do recognize the value of medical science unless they belong to a particular cult which discourages medical intervention.

And yes I am asking you to define " mass dementia" so I can comprehend better how a group of individuals may suffer of a diagnosed mental disorder.

Sabine Grant

BRETTC : I thought it would be useful to you to reread that previous post of mine . It should be clear to you that I do not hear voices nor do I entrust the " hearing voice" claim to be an actual sensorial perception of an audible voice which dictates a particular choice of action.
I have explained to the best of my communication ability how I personaly experience what I consider to be God's inspiration to my thoughts.
Attributing any other kind of process of communication with God to me becomes irrelevent at this point.
I will assume that you had not read my post until now. If you wish to comment on what I personaly expressed here, no problems. But if you pursue to attribute to my thoughts what I have not stated, I do not think the dialogue is worth pursuing.

BadBadBad

Sabine,

Do you believe it's possible for God, in the present time, to communicate with people not just through some subtle divine influence but explicitly either through voices and visions? Do you believe the stories throughout the Bible that say exactly that, and do you believe in the inspired by the hand of God concept through which it was supposedly written? Do you believe that these things in fact happened, and do you believe God could do these things in the present day?

BadBadBad

No, I'm not mixing answers. I said we have christian posters plural. I have the Bible, and it "authoritatively" defines religion. In my life, and particularly in my experience here, "modern christianity" is something completely different. "Modern christianity" as you have coined the term is defined by you and every other self-proclaimed True Christian (TM) as a group. It's loosely related to the Bible, but it's twisted and sorted by each individual according to their whims and desires. As an atheist participant on these boards, I try to get my hands around what you all individually proclaim as christianity. You have to admit that reconciling the Bible together with everyone's individual doctrine is quite an undertaking indeed. Forgive me if I fail, but at the same time, you can only define SabineGrant christianity. You are just as hopelessly lost at defining "modern christianity" as I am.

Not at all. I encourage you to embrace scientific reasoning by all means. I'm saying that it's hypocritical of you as a christian to proclaim the truth in christianity in the face of science and reason, and then turn around and deny the possibility of God based upon science and reason. As a christian you have to be consistent in how you apply scientific reasoning. If you believe in an omnipotent God and you believe the stories in the Bible, you can't then turn around and rule out scientifically that God can communicate to someone and ask them to murder their child. You can't deny that a communication from God might result in or appear exactly as clinical psychosis. You have to consider the possibility, and you are dismissing the possibility that indeed God was directly involved in these incidents without a second thought.

Mass dementia:

2 Th 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sabine Grant

Because I do not limit God's means to communicate with human beings, I can respect the claim of a person who says they could hear an audible voice but I retain a sense of skepticism because I have not experienced such communication. The same with visions.

I consider that many anecdotes from the OT are symbolic illustrations to express various concepts. Since Abraham was brought up before, I give importance to the message rather than the story itself. So I retain from that illustration that God was requiring from Abraham proof of his loyalty to Him by asking him to sacrifice the dearest element in his life. As God stops Abraham from resuming the sacrifice of Isaac, He points to a ram caught in thorns and wistles. If I do not dwell on the actual existence of a person named Abraham and whether or not it really happened, I do dwell on the symbolic aspect of God's message testing the faith of a human being and showing His sovereignty by redirecting that human being to His Will. ( the will in that illustration being that God meant not for Abraham to actualy kill his own son but to show Abraham that only He could provide a worthy sacrifice.... the ram being a symbol of the messiah).

Sorry for expanding on Abraham but I needed to demonstrate to you how I view OT stories.

I do not consider the Bible as being in its entirity inspired by God. I believe that most of the Laws were set in place by leaders who wanted to find means to control the jewish tribes. And using God as the supreme authority who " told them to establish those laws" is an actual usurpation of God's intent for mankind. Most of those laws are self serving to the elders of those tribes and following Kings.

I regard Psalms as being a lyrical account of David's intimate experience with God. I found lots of food to nurture my faith in Psalms. The humanity of David is very moving to me and how he entrusts God to embrace him regardless of his failures.

Proverbs : I believe most of them are indeed thru divine inspiration. They challenge our human nature and encourage the believer to apply other means to various situations than what our first impulse may be.

Prophetic Books : a mistery to me. Even as I read them in my native language, I cannot as of now understand and define if they are inspired by God or not. Those scriptures do not have any impact on my behavior or do not offer me an insight of how God can transform my nature. So I do not dwell on them.

I believe the 4 Gospels to be divinely inspired. The Pauline Epistles I consider to be instructions to various churches ( the visible church ). I believe Paul was indeed inspired divinely.

As to Revelation, again it does not affect my behavior or character. However, I believe that the so many interpretations of this final chapter have probably left out God's intent thru the message. Prophetic analysis focus so much on decoding John's vision that God's intent has been neglicted. I believe that we need not as believers to comprehend that complexe vision but to retain that ultimately God will decide of the outcome whether personal or the entire world.

I hope I have answered your questions....I am not a literalist christian. I look for the essence of God's intent . I entrust my own individual search rather than what various doctrines pertain to dictate to believers.

I think an interesting question would be whether or not believers are to be inspired by God as they study the Bible. Rather than is the Bible inspired by God.......?

Sabine Grant

The verse may be referring to God allowing the coming of the Anti Christ who will decieve....even the elite is at risk.

Thanks for trying.... but it is a far stretch from what I asked you to define . If I apply your answer as a definition of " mass dementia", it implies that people who suffer of dementia and consequencial symtoms such as delusion " might all be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrigtheousness". Basicaly you are attributing to God the intent to damn human beings who are unable to make rational choices because they suffer of a mental disorder. That He would not distinguish between evil commited by reason of insanity and evil commited by pure reason. Is that what you imply?

I am still awaiting for data confirming the existence of a phenomenon you stated as " mass dementia". Also still unsatisfied as to you not providing me with a definition of what a psychosis entitles.

Ronin

Have you read Genesis at all, Sabine?

In that fable, your God intentionally damned all of humanity based on the actions of His own perfect creations, which were suffering from the unique mental disorder of not being able to reason between good and evil.

Adam and Eve lacked the mental capacity to provide a reasoned intent to commit the atrociously evil act of disobeying Yahweh's command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, as they had not yet had the ability to form that knowledge until after they did so.

That was also, apparently, at a time before God, in his omnipotence, found his ability to forgive.

The Naked Mage

All right, everybody, write this down: "Sabine is not to be exposed to rhetorical questions. Whether by incompetence or intent, she will become disoriented."

BadBadBad

The context of this verse is irrellevent to the discussion. This is biblical "evidence" for mass delusion. The exact same sort of delusion that I am suggesting could have possibly affected these two women.

Do you deny the possibility that it is within God's power to put forth a delusion just as described in this verse? Do you deny the possibility that this delusion could appear to scientists and doctors as dementia or psychosis? Can you consider that this type of God induced delusion could result in clinical psychosis? Do you deny the possibility that even in the face of a medical diagnosis of mental illness that in fact, the underlying cause is direct intervention of God?

"WHEREAS, In this therapeutic culture, physicians and counselors often ignore human sin and its effects, neglect our most fundamental human and spiritual needs, and therefore, misunderstand our condition, mistreat our problems, and sometimes unintentionally do more harm than good; and

WHEREAS, An uncritical acceptance of the therapeutic culture too often has infected our pulpits, ministries, and counseling (Colossians 2:8); and

WHEREAS, Our churches often have neglected our God-ordained responsibility for the care and cure of souls, becoming practically ineffective, both marginalizing ourselves from the culture and being marginalized by the mental health establishment; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis, Missouri, June 11-12, 2002, affirm Christian counseling that relies upon the Word of God rather than theories that are rooted in a defective understanding of human nature (John 17:17); and be it further

RESOLVED, That we affirm that any method worthy of the name “Christian counseling” must address the root of our problems and reveal the crux of God’s solution—the redemptive work of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God, by which the depths of sin and the fullness of grace are made known (Hebrews 4:12-16); and be it further "


If you can deny all of this off hand, then I suggest you use the same logic and reasoning to analyze your belief in christianity.

Sabine Grant

You tend to indulge in demeaning other people's character... is that the best comment you can make? I am not too impressed.