Sauron

In another thread, Toto writes to Layman:

I'm sure I can generate a half-dozen examples of legends arising with less than 40 years timespan between (a) the time of death, or other notable event; and (b) the first recording of the legend. Elvis comes to mind; JFK; Muhammad is another.

Is Sherwin-White's claim of 40 years being too short for such development - is that really taken seriously?

Anyone else with relevant examples of legends arising far earlier than this rather arbitrary 40 years?

Peter Kirby

You wouldn't be trying to make a comparison, would you?

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

Citing such examples is almost too easy.

Hong Xiu-chuan, the Taiping leader
The Lubavitcher Messiah, Rebbe Schneerson
Edgar Cayce
Kathleen Kuhlman
Joseph Smith
Nxele
Wovoka, the Paiute messiah

etc
etc
etc

<sigh>

Koyaanisqatsi

Not to mention the fact that in the Jesus myth, for example, you're talking about a pre-literate society and a primarily non-local audience, presumably made up of either highly ignorant people or highly gullible people, who most likely were already theists of some nature to be listening to any of that horseshite to begin with!

But let's give them the benefit of all doubts and say that the audiences (aka, cult members) who were being told by others what others had told them, were the smartest, most skeptical group of people to have ever walked the planet (aka, atheists ).

I was brought up in Eugene, Oregon. Have you ever been there? You have? Did you ever meet or hear of "The Prophet?" NO? He was murdered ten years ago by the elders of his own church, but before he was, he...

See what I mean? A legend can "grow" within the telling of one legend. It's that easy.

And let's take this scenario next: I was brought up in Eugene. You were too? Did you ever meet or hear of "The Prophet?" You did? Well, did you hear what the real reason was for his church elders murdering him?

Now, are you going to go all the way back to Eugene in order to personally investigate my story? You lived there and this only happened ten years ago and you actually knew of this "Prophet" guy, but you didn't know the reason for his church elders murdering him and now you do.

Booking any flights?

Let's say you do hear the incredible tale--filled with fantastic claims of love and betrayal and hinst of deity and so on--and you decide to go back to Eugene and personally investigate.

What next? Well, we have all sorts of ways to find out details, but of course we'll have to toss all of that aside to adjust the analogy correctly, so you only have word of mouth. Who do you go to?

Let's now say you actually find someone who tells you of a gathering downtown, some two hundred followers of the martyred "Prophet" in a church the Prophet's disciple built in his memory. What do you think you'll hear there? It's only been ten years, mind you, not the forty that has been estimated (generously IMO, but no matter) in the Jesus myth.

Just ten years ago and you've found a congregation; a cult of the Prophet. What do you do then other than listen to the disciple tell the legend of the Prophet, that's what.

And let's even go so far as to say that you actually do what no cult member I have ever seen has ever done and you stand up during the telling of the legend of the Prophet and ask for proof and the disciple's response is to say something like, "You seek proof from God? Who are you to ask anything of God. You serve God as you must serve the Prophet and believe on faith alone or face the most dire consequences!"

So, now where are you? Well, you are either a believer in the Prophet legend you've just heard or you are not and you leave.

I won't even take this to the level the christian cult did and order your execution for disbelief, because I think you see my point. A legend can begin the very second it is told. It doesn't take forty years; it doesn't take ten years; hell, it doesn't have to take any years at all if you're gullible enough to believe something just because somebody either told you to believe it or threatened you into believing it.

Not to also mention the fact that the mythology took centuries to form into the catholic cult of Bishop Iraneus that largely gave us the Jesus myth known today (setting aside all of the thousands of variations, of course, just for simplicity's sake).

The question isn't "how long does it take for a legend to blah, blah, blah," it's "how was the legend told and to whom?"

Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan, can you tell me more about this "Kathleen Kuhlman"? I've never heard the name and a Google search turned up nothing.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

<frown> Who was I thinking of? I'll get back to that one in a second.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

Kathryn Kuhlman

http://www.jgmol.com/kk.htm

Michael

MortalWombat

Let's not forget Haile Selassie, the former Emperor of Ethiopia, who was venerated as God incarnate by Rastafarians in his own lifetime. He was quite puzzled by this news on his visit to Jamaica.

Upon his death, one of his followers expressed his belief on a "60 Minutes" broadcast that Selassie was still alive and the news of his death was a rumor spread by the Western media.

MortalWombat

Also, in his book about Charles Manson, The Family, Ed Sanders relates instances where Manson was alleged by his followers to have performed several miracles, including levitating a bus over a creek.

wordsmyth

Here is an entire website dedicated to legends...

www.snopes.com

I'm certain you can find ample proof of legends beginning in much less than 40 years there.