Jove

If evil cannot stand in the presence of God/if evil cannot exist in Heaven, then how was Satan able to last in Heaven after evil entering his heart, and how was he able to accuse Job directly in front of God?

MrDarwin

Oh, I can think of all kinds of problems with Satan.

If God in his/her/its omniscience knew what Satan would do even before creating the creature, why did he/she/it go ahead with it, unless God wanted Satan to do exactly what Satan ended up doing?

Given the way that God created Satan, could Satan have behaved in any other way?

Uzzah

And through various research I was/am always under the impression that angels have no free will. They only do the will of god. If that's the case, how in the hell did satan rebel?


Uzzah

Tom Sawyer

Uzzah, why don't you think angels have free will? According to that old Nicholas Cage movie (I forget the name, it's the one with Meg Ryan where he gives up his angelness to be with her and then she dies the next day - I guess God decided to fuck him), they do. Granted, it's a work of fiction, but so is everything else written about angels, so I see no reason to give the movie any less credibility than any other source.

According to Milton, Satan's only real crime was to question the supremacy of God. Perhaps that didn't count as evil until Satan actually questioned Him and then God decided it was evil to do so and then Satan picked a fight and got himself wupped like a bitch. After that, none of the angels, although they could have free will and the ability to challenge God, would question Him and just go through eternity as his lap dogs because they're too scared to do anything else.

I think what we need is a Free the Angels movement to help emancipate them from the shackles of this dictator who'll consign them to an eternity of darkness and flames if they don't toe the party line.

Vibr8gKiwi

The problem with Satan is he doesn't appear to exist. I mean how many goats do I have to sacrifice to him before I get rich?

Tom Sawyer

That depends. Do you sell the goat meat afterwards or just throw it in a fire?

Good money in goat meat these days

Uzzah

oops...my bad...looking around more I kinda confused xiantiy's version of angels with the Jewish and Islam versions. In the two latter versions, angels have no free will. Bad Uzzah!


edited to add: You know, when you factor in the omnipotence and omniscient of god, angels effectively have no free will just like human beings. Unless you make satan an equal of god which some modern christians do. But there again, you run into a problem of god's omnipotence verses satan's.


Uzzah

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Uzzah ]</p>

Jove

Hell, when you factor in the omniscience of God, even GOD doesn't have free will.

Uzzah

Hence the problem of being an omnipotent, omniscient being.


Uzzah

Egoinos

I thought Satan was only seen as evil in the intertestamental period? I mean, at the time of Job Satan was still on the side of God, doing what God told him to do, acting under orders - hence still an angel. He was just the "adversary" angel, thats all.

Its also possible Satan is still an angel, doing God's will by tempting people, until he gets thrown out by Michael in Revelation.