starling

Hi all, there's something I'm having trouble working out. If someone does not believe in something, is that the same as believing something is not? Take God for instance. (Gee, what a concept...)

I'm thinking there are two ways not to believe in God. The first is to believe God does not exist. The second is to not believe God exists. My problem is, logically those two statements seem identical, even though they represent different concepts. I haven't taken a class in logic, just independant reading. (To all logic class takers: :notworthy ) Could someone with more experience on the subject help clarify? It's just something I'm not quite steady on.

Maybe 'not' doesn't commute across belief, like the way "I'm not totally eating" and "I'm totally not eating" are two different statements. Other than that, I have no idea. Just a hunch that it might help us better define the difference between Agnostic and Atheist if we establish a difference between belief in lack and lack of belief.


Starling

Normal

First of all the distinction would not separate agnostic from atheism, both statements imply atheism.

The difference is, of course, the function of the word “believe”.

In the statement “I believe God does not exist”, you commit to believing that a God does not exist. This is usually interpreted as a “theist atheist” statement, in that while you do not believe in God, you “have faith” in the negation.

In the statement “I do not believe there is a God”, implies only a lack of belief in God, but does not commit to believing a God does not exist. This is a true atheist statement, in that you do not believe in God, and it doesn’t require “faith” in the negation.

Edit: Wow, I used "negation" in a really confusing way. Whenever I say "negation", I mean "negation of God exists".

Philosoft

I see these explained all the time, but I still don't really understand. Both individuals answer "no" to the question, "Do you believe God exists?" How does strength of belief relate to this concept?

Normal

Person who claims "I do not believe a god exists":

Do you believe a god exists?
No

Do you believe a god does not exist?
No

Person who claims "I believe a god does not exist":

Do you believe a god exists?
No

Do you believe a god does not exist?
Yes

The distinction is the first question implies lack of belief in a god, the second question implies lack of belief in a god, AND belief that a god does not exist.

It's a very very important distinction for some atheists.

CX

No. Not believing in something is different from disbelieving or denying the existence of something. Think of it like the distinction between immoral and amoral. Immoral means against morality. A murderer is considered immoral by most. Amoral is an absence of morality. A computer is amoral.

Philosoft

That's the problem. I don't know what a "belief that a god does not exist" entails. It's obviously a different type of belief than a belief that God does exist. But I don't know how it's supposed to affect my thinking.
I know, and it seems meaningful on the surface, but I don't see how they really differ, other than how they answer certain leading questions.

Golgo_13

Then there is also, "I lack a belief in any gods".

SRB

To not believe that God exists is to lack a belief of a certain sort. Something incapable of having any beliefs at all would be an obvious example of that. So a rock, for example, does not believe that God exists (nor does a rock believe that God does not exist). Rocks believe nothing at all.

To believe that God does not exist is to have a belief of a certain sort. That is different to lacking a belief. No rock believes that God does not exist.

SRB

Jet Grind

I myself recently had a little trouble with this. My best answer is that the two statements in and of themselves are not really all that different. The real separation in atheism come between those who only believe that there is insufficient evidence for God and those who believe that there is sufficient evidence against God.

beastmaster

I agree that the latter formulation is much more clear and helpful.