I ate Pascal's Wafer

Well, it's not so much that other people in real situations have died in a more spectacular way, but rather that other people (even within the ranks of Christianity) have made greater sacrifices to the religion than Jesus did. For example, there are those who spent their lives in devotion to Christianity, only to be painfully tortured and killed in ways that Jesus can only imagine. A few hours nailed to a stick is a breeze compared to some of the torture methods of the past.

I don't agree that there is a different point to this. Christians are playing the card that Jesus' sacrifice was so great and that we should follow God because he made this great sacrifice--and we should hold them to it. If Jesus' sacrifice is so wonderful, then why is it a breeze compared to other sacrifices made by mere humans?

-Nick

Pyrrho

The story of the "sacrifice" is incoherent. Think of it this way:

God decides that someone must suffer for the "sins" of the earth (as if there were no suffering going on as it is).
God decides that if a "perfectly innocent" man/god/whatever undeservedly suffers, then this will satisfy God.

But why would that make God happy? Why does this act of injustice make God happy? Why not just forgive people if He wanted to forgive people?

God, supposedly being omnipotent, cannot be constrained by any external requirements; the only requirements that are possible are those required by God Himself.

There is no point to the suffering at all; God is just a sadist.

Truly, the only reasonable answer is as missus_gumby suggested; it is just a rehash of primitive superstitious drivel, not to be taken seriously by an intelligent person.

christ-on-a-stick

Heh. Some "sacrifice" indeed.

While obviously being an atheist and all I don't buy into any of this hoo-ha to begin with, just for the sake of argument, to portray JC's death as the ULTIMATE sacrifice is ridiculous. No, ludicrous! And absolutely ABSURD to boot.

You haven't sacrificed *your life* if you get it back (eternally and with all the super-wonder-powers no less).

Spaz

Oh shit, cue magus "he was carrying all the sins of the world so it was the worst torture ever"

Family Man

That poll definitely needs a "It wasn't a sacrifice to begin with" option.

The_Unknown_Banana

Well, his last words depend on which book you read. (All 4 give a different account of his last words!) But that's not a good defense for a theist! lol. Anyway, my understanding is that christians do in fact think of Jesus as God, the same being.

But yeah, like I say, what was the point of it all in the first place? For one, he died for no reason. People sin, so how does letting people kill the son of God allow him to forgive us? And secondly, as has been pointed out here, it wasn't much of a sacrifice to begin with.

I think the problem here is that I'm trying to understand the logic in the bible, which is kind of an impossibility due to it's lack of it.

winstonjen

Maybe Jebus got depressed (because he wasn't in heaven) and wanted to commit suicide. He essentially did a 'suicide by cop'.

diana

Hi, SilentPoet. Welcome to II.

I've answered this as though I'm addressing a Christian, btw.

Why, though? Was God incapable of forgiving humanity otherwise?

This is one of the main questions you'll encounter here, in various forms: what was the point?

Jhn 15:13: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." And there's also Jhn 3:16, of course. You know that one, so I'll spare everyone. It's all about love, selflessness and salvation, is it? Nooooo...not exactly.

See, I agree with the "greater love hath no man..." idea, provided giving one's life is necessary. But, if you don't mind an analogy, it wasn't as though Jesus was crushed to death carrying people out of a collapsing skyscraper. That is, in order to save the hapless victims, the hero must endanger himself. This is understandable. This is a "no greater love" scenario.

But I've not yet been shown where Jesus' dying on the cross had any actual relevance to the sins of the world. It's more like he, say, carried everybody to safety, the building was still standing, and he walked back in and sat down until it crushed him. What was the point? It wasn't necessary.

If you think it was, you are necessarily arguing (in essence) that your god is vindictive and bloodthirsty, that he would require a death of some innocent creature so he can forgive you. You're also arguing that your God is not all-powerful, if he requires a sacrifice to forgive.

Wait a minute. Let's take this a step further. Let's say I get into an argument with someone. We say some nasty things to each other and maybe hurt one another's feelings--but in reality, her words only hurt me if I let them. Otherwise, they are just sounds, her opinion, and have no bearing or effect on me.

Let's say she gets upset that her words aren't hurting me and she slaps me. Of course, this does smart. She is capable of causing me pain. The question is, am I capable of forgiving her without requiring a "sacrifice"? I mean...she actually has hurt me, right? Wouldn't you consider me petty were I to require she, oh, buy me dinner to "make up for" what she did? Can't she just apologize?

Now. Let's take a look at God. He's forever, perfect, all-powerful and everything, right? How can anything I say or do hurt him in any way? (Unless he chooses to be hurt by it, of course, but how is that my problem?) But somehow, of all things, he--being all-powerful--has chosen to be "hurt" by, say, my having sexual congress with a consenting adult out of wedlock (an experience in which neither of the actual participants were harmed and both enjoyed, even). Why something that didn't concern him that didn't even hurt anyone "hurt" him is beyond me already. But it gets crazier.

He had his son butchered to provide himself an eternal salve for the "pain" he has chosen to feel. What does his son's death have to do with my having an enjoyable romp in the sack with someone who isn't my lawfully wedded husband? You've stumped me there.

Does he think about his son's gruesome death in the same way I envision a field of daffodils when I'm stressed? Does it soothe him somehow? Does he watch me enjoying the pleasures of the flesh with growing anger, then flash to his son in pain and suffocating to death, breathe deeply, and think, "AAaaaah. That's better"?

This is petty in the extreme. I wouldn't tolerate this in a child. How can you tolerate it--nay...worship it--in a god?

I have to agree with those who say (in so many words) " a weekend away from Daddy's opulence and comfort does not a 'sacrifice' make." If a sacrifice was really necessary, you need look no further than Judas. Now that was a real sacrifice.

d

winstonjen

Because he's all-powerful and can crush you on a whim! Don't question his ways! Morality depends on who does an act, not the act itself! :boohoo: :banghead:

diana

I just realized that while I was tapping in more thoughts, I moved the "petty in the extreme" paragraph away from its rightful place in the narrative. I hope this isn't too confusing.

d