Celsus

Theists,

It seems a fairly common complaint among theists that their god(s) gets an unfair portrayal by the various debunkers here on this excellent website. In the interest of deflating this, I would like to know how we can understand your god(s) better. So my questions are:

What is your god?

How do you know?/Where do you get your information?

Are there any special rules we need to know about interpreting this information? (i.e. Is all/some/little of it true? Is all/some/little of it accurate? When is something literal or metaphorical? Do we need to believe first, before we can interpret? Are there any supercessions that we know about, and what precisely do they supercede? etc.)

When you ascribe adjectives to your god(s) based on your understanding of the information, how is it different from us ascribing adjectives to your god(s) based on our understanding of the information?

Which personal experiences count, and which don't?

Why does this god(s) get preferential treatment over other hypothesised gods? Or: Why does the information that you have get preferential treatment over the information of other gods?

When you have answered this, I (personally, but I can't speak for everyone here) will no longer give unfair portrayals of your god(s).

Joel

schu

Very good questions Joel, but I predict you will not get straight answers to any of them. The big problem for xians is there is no coherent description of their god in their holy book. The wishywashy/saladbar type xians will claim their god is love, but Numbers 31 makes a perversion of this claim, as does the flood story. If they get their description of their god from the Bible he will be an evil being, if the description is from their head, he will not be the god as described in the Bible.

Ultimately we find that god only exists in the head of believers. Personally I think their god is a manifestation of mental illness. If I find that a number of xians answer your questions and the answers are consistent with each other and their holy book I will consider changing my mind. If I find they cannot answer consistently I will remain skeptical of their god and their intentions when they try to portray an inconsistent deity.

Schu

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: schu ]</p>

Perchance

Let's see if I can predict some of the answers you might get to your questions.

Love. (Schu pointed out some reasons why this won't work). Or an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being who sent his only son to die for us.

The Bible says so. The Bible is true.

No matter what an atheist says about the Bible, he's taking it out of context.

Also, you probably can't understand until the Holy Spirit fills you.

I'm Christian. And you're not.

Personal experiences of God's love count. Personal experiences of God's non-existence don't.

One of three responses, most likely:

1) Look around you! God designed everything! It's in nature!

2) I can feel God. I don't feel the other gods. They must not be real.

3) My mommy told me so.

My guess would be that unless an atheist becomes a theist, the theist will still complain.

-Perchance.

Wyz_sub10

I agree with Schu.

What you'll likely get is a bunch of bible quotes, quotes from Aquinas or Augustine, messages telling you to discover god for yourself, testimonials about the personal and specific relationship with Jesus.

You will never get a firm definition, because a firm definition will never withstand the simplest scrutiny.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]</p>

agapeo

Yep! That be me.
Although I consider this website quite good, I wouldn't go so far as to call it excellent. And as far as an unfair portrayal of my God goes – I'm not surprised that such would be the case for those who don't believe in His existence, so you'll get no complaints from me.
I seriously doubt you have much of an interest in doing this. No offence. But it seems to me that unless you are completely naïve to what theists believe these questions have been brought up before (surely aplenty here on this "excellent" website ) and answered. Perhaps, you haven't had time to explore this website to see that.
And despite my suspicions I will attempt to answer your questions. But let me ask you one. What difference does it make if I answer every one and yet you still think my God is an asshole (if He exists)?
What! Instead of who. I like that. J If you were to ask "What am I?" I would answer – Something that has a physical constitution. Since God has no physical properties, and it is stated in the Bible that He is spirit (John 4:24). Now I suppose you will want to know what a spirit is. Can't answer that question since whatever it is it isn't physical and therefore can't be described.
A little birdie told me. Gosh, this sure is a baited question.
What information? We/I haven't given a source of information as of yet. This question assumes the answer.
It what? The source of our/my information or whatever I make up as I go along?
When is what literal or metaphorical? Let me guess – that which is written in the Bible. See, how can I take your questions seriously when they obviously are biased?
Interpret what? Same as above.
This question is too fuzzy to answer. Superceded by what?
One is right and the other is wrong.
None count. Only that which is truth counts. If your experiences are in harmony with that then I suppose your experience counts for something. But I don't suppose it would be prudent to base your belief on. At least not to you.
Well now, I thought the questions were to theists in general. It seems not, huh?
Same as above.
Well, how did you like them answers? Did they change your opinion?

Celsus

Hi agapeo,

Actually, I am serious because I don't want any straw men arguments, hence, I am serious in asking what the specific theists here believe.

And I have never seen the theists give straight answers. Hence, here is your opportunity to preach.

I never said that god is an asshole. Nor do I believe that god, if he exists, is an asshole (except inasmuch as a hole doesn't really exist). The difference is, if you answer the questions straight, you can't then accuse us of distorting your god.

Anyway, on to your answers:
As you have already guessed, I'm not interested in the name you give your god, but rather the properties of your god. However, I am not asking for physical properties. Any kind of properties will do. All you've come up with is "spirit" without any qualifiers. Things that aren't physical can still be described (think of descriptions of behaviour, time or dimensions or whatever you think best suits him)

How is it baited? Everyone bases their choices/beliefs on the information they have at hand. I'm simply asking you where you got yours.

Ok. Forgive me for thinking you might base your belief on some information - factual, theoretical or theological (etc.). Apparently you base it on nothing at all.

&lt;snip irrelevant questions, since apparently some theists do make it up as they go along&gt;

Whatever you believe it to supercede. Christianity supercedes (some of) Judaism, Islam supercedes both of them, Mormons supercede something or other.

Care to not sidestep the question, and explain why you think so?

First straight answer, very good. So I assume any explanations like "I feel..." or "God spoke to me..." or "I felt god..." don't count, right? Now, speaking of begging questions, what exactly is the "truth" and how do you know?

Well most theists exhibit some demand for exclusive belief in their personal deities. If you don't, then you could simply ignore this question (obviously).

For the most part, you skirted round them, but I did like the one answer I thought you gave that directly answered a question. At least I can now tell Christians that their supposed personal experiences with God don't count. Anyway, you do realise these questions were more for taking the piss than anything else? I don't believe a theist would dare to give straight answers for fear of revealing their inconsistencies and the subjective nature of their beliefs.

Prove me wrong.

Joel

Pseudonymph

Well, I'm not really a theist but I'll give this a shot...just to have some dissenting opinion.

I can't satisfy your craving for hard evidence. I won't pretend I can, but I won't also claim to know exactly how God works. It's not his bible, it's ours. We wrote it, it has mistakes and errors. I do believe that it was inspired by what people saw God as, at the time...but that's where the accuracy stops.

I do believe we were "created"...and just because we can explain where we came from with science, does not mean there is not a higher motivation behind the reason for our creation. Why would I believe that a powerful God could not do something as simple as use evolutionary techniques to further his creations?

As far as describing God's properties...I believe he is all knowing, and all powerful, but not perfect. No...I do not believe God is perfect. So many things would not add up if he was. I also do not believe he is all loving. But rather, that his love is expressed in many different ways to different people, and sometimes not at all.

In the bible is says we are created in Gods image and I believe this to be correct. We are imperfect and inconsistant. We also strive to be like God. We strive to have all the answers, even to go as far as to create life. Does this not strike you as odd that we want so much to become all knowing? I think this stems from our roots...right back to God.

I'm just not sure that I can think that we arose out of total spontanaeity(horrbible spelling I know)to be able to become so advanced, that we contemplate OURSELVES. How can something create itself, to contemplate itself?

But I also consider myself somewhat of an agnostic, because I DON'T REALLY KNOW! I don't think anyone truly can. I just know what I've found out for myself, and what I've seen.

I do read the bible often and find it to offer interesting perspectives on morality(if you look hard enough you can gleam useful things) and other issues.

I personally do experience what I call "God"...It's just something I believe in...that makes some people angry and drives them to call me stupid. But I don't adhere to this dogmatically, nor do I insist that I am "right". I only know what is right for me.

Thanks for listening!

Oh and wouldnt this be much better in a higher forum? This seems like it should remain pretty civil!

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: SirenSpeak ]</p>

Wyz_sub10

Well, I suppose those were answers in the same why as "white" is an answer to "what is the current temperature outside?"

The answers certainly did little to change my opinion of the way many christians cannot answer questions related to their beliefs.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]</p>

agapeo

Hi agapeo, Hi Joe.
Then pardon my skeptism and I apologize for doubting your sincerity.
Thanks for the invitation but I'll pass. I merely thought I'd take the time to answer the questions. Ahh, but apparently you think I haven't. More below.
True. You didn't. I need to learn to curb my assumptions.
But I never did.
Exactly!
Then what you really want is character attributes and not properties of my God. Is this correct?
You didn't ask for details. Did ya?
Thinking, thinking, thinking . . . ok what answer can I give you that hasn't already been given? How 'bout -- misunderstood?
My assumption problem raising it's ugly head again. I read your entire post first before responding and based upon it I assumed that the thrust of your questions were directed towards theists who are Christians. If so, then the obvious source of our information is the Bible. You should know that.
I was being a bit sarcastic, so the problem was mine and not yours.
:lol Are you sure?
I'll go with your answer since it's basically correct.
Ahh, come on Joe. Are you now telling me how I should answer the questions? There was no criterion stated on how these questions should be answered, was there?
I thought you'd like that one. What is truth? Ahh, the old Pilate question is it not? I suppose truth is whatever you wish to believe is truth, isn't it?
I don't -- but why should I ignore these questions? I still have a belief in a God. Doesn't that count?
Some I really didn't answer at all did I? But the ones I did weren't skirting the questions at all. They just didn't give much detail.
Will you quote me on that one? I'm in trouble now.
Why?

Celsus

Hi agapeo,

If I answer you point by point, this thread will get too long. Anyway, I originally explained that theists often complain that "their god(s) gets an unfair portrayal", and then you said you never accused us of distorting your god, but then when asked to describe your god, you chose "misunderstood". So which is it?

Anyway, you can choose to be as vague as you like, but if you are interested in clarifying the misconceptions of your god, you must explain to us what we're doing wrong in our interpretation of your god. I just want to know exactly the rules you set in interpreting your god, from your holy texts (or whatever you want to make up if it suits your tastes).

Joel