Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corgan Sow · 04-23-2003, 05:06 PM

O.k, this suppose to belong to Church/State seperation board, but I thought this board suits the nature of this post. Anyway, from a message board, I was in this topic; "One nation under God - do you say it?" at GAMEFAQS website. The board there has a healthy mix of atheists and christians and *sigh* fundys as well. There came this post:

Quote:

I don't see how atheists can be offended by the Pledge of Allegience. How does it really affect them if they say it? It's not really going to condemn them to Hell, since they believe there is no Hell. The Pledge doesn't endorse a religion, but makes a statement about our nation's history and to make our nation humble. Would you rather have our nation humble under God or have ourselves think that we are superior and that there are no moral boundaries? We ARE a nation under God. We are a nation of many faiths giving that freedom by our founding fathers. This whole controversity is just a bunch of whining and arrogance. Ever since prayer has been taken out of our schools, our society has diminished having teenage pregnancy, illegal drug usage, homicides going up. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

My reply came as this:

Quote:

Oh, then if you do WANT prayer back into schools, what kind of prayer will you want Americans to cite? Christian? Pagan? Wiccan? Satanic prayer even?

Then...

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I believe that there should be a prayer involving problems, concerns, or praises with students, such as car accidents, a safe prom, injuries, etc. Then the prayer would end with the Lord's Prayer. Of course, I didn't mean by saying that people should be forced to do it. Same goes for the Pledge of Allegience. Faith is not something that is given by someone else. The person him or herself must be the one to accept Christ as their Saviour. You should say what you mean, otherwise you are being a liar. A concern I have about the Pledge is that some people say it by rote. Hopefully, the September 11th tragedy has brought people closer to the meaning of the words.

Anyway, wouldn't prayer in school give hope to those who are under depression or thinking about suicide, perhaps realizing that there is someone that cares and loves them? Would you rather take this hope away just for the sake of secularism? Even for the atheists, wouldn't the concerns brought up by students help them understand more about their fellow classmates and what's going on in their lives?
I'm sure some atheists care about others, just like you said with the low crime rate in EU nations. Which then leads to my answer to your other point. . .

which came to more rebuttals:

Hopefully, the September 11th tragedy has brought people closer to the meaning of the words.

That's very sweet of *Yahweh* to sacrifice 2,500 lives just to bring people closer to the understanding of the pledge. That view may also contradict your own religion because no one of you Christians would confirm exactly that the Lord (say he exists) brings forth 9/11 out of vehemence on non-believers and secularism.

Anyway, wouldn't prayer in school give hope to those who are under depression or thinking about suicide, perhaps realizing that there is someone that cares and loves them?

What about people of other faiths who would prefer their own version of "hope"?

Would you rather take this hope away just for the sake of secularism?

That's rather ignoarant (I could've chosen a more hasher word). You choose to stamp other people's beliefs and rights just to appease a group of people?

Even for the atheists, wouldn't the concerns brought up by students help them understand more about their fellow classmates and what's going on in their lives?
I'm sure some atheists care about others, just like you said with the low crime rate in EU nations. Which then leads to my answer to your other point. . .

I am more concerned of understanding of you and your fellow peers towards non-Christian theists more than freethinkers and atheists. In other words, screw atheists. What about Muslims? What about pagans? What about wiccans? Do you approve if Wiccans take over this country and ask you to recite THEIR pledge? Or if the hudud is implemented in this country, would you follow it?

and then till his last reply I'll ever bother:

Quote:

Was it very sweet of people to keep turning their backs away from God? Back in the Old Testament, God freed the Jewish people from the Egyptians. However, despite the sacred meeting at Mt. Sinah, they turned their back on the Lord and worshipped idols. Thus, they didn't meet the Promise Land for 40 years. The Lord was forced to bring punishment upon the people. If not, they would continue to do the evil that they were doing.

Please think about how God is feeling about how all the sin going on in America. Imagine how fortunate we are that we don't suffer as much as we should. We truly do have a merciful God. He loves us. He wants us to turn back to him. If there were no tragedies or deaths, etc, going on, then we probably wouldn't have as many religious people in America. We would probably feel arrogant and feel that we don't need God, since nothing is going wrong. A lot more sin would be happening. A lot more people would be emotionally and physically hurt from adultury, stealing, lying, etc. Our world would be chaos. Tragedies are supposed to test the believer's faith and for the unbeliever it is a call to come to God.

Remember, the Lord certain things sins for a reason. He wants us to love Him and to love others.

I disagree with the ostracizing in the Pledge of Allegience. The people who do that would not be true Christians or true patriots. This nation is with liberty and justice for all. They do, of course, have the right to be concerned for the person not doing it. However, making fun of or giving looks at them wouldn't be the appropriate way to do this, of course.

Satanic prayers and paganism would definitely be a bad idea, because they do not promote the universal "good" or universal morals. Our schools don't need any more bad influences as the youth already have. Christian prayers would be a good influence. Isn't part of school about growing up to be mature American citizens? The reason why I chose Christian prayers is that most people see themselves as Christians, but some don't act like that way. This would probably be a good reminder for them to act like such. Also, a part of Christianity is to spread the Gospel to others. This may create a domino effect and lead to others being spirtually well. Thus more people have good influences and then we'll have a better society. Then, the horrible media will finally be more morally acceptable.

By the way, I am not an old person from the era of when school had prayer. I am actually a high school student as of right now.

No wonder I really pity you freethinker Americans...:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: At least, even FUNDY Muslims in my country acknowledges freedom of non-Muslims to practise other religions!

Biff the unclean · 04-23-2003, 05:24 PM

You have to remember the early history of our country. There were any number of nasty mean spirited religious groups annoying the hell out of the people in Europe. Cromwell and his Puritans and the genocide of the Irish comes to mind.
Eventually the Europeans rose up and forced these groups out.
They headed to the new world to live with the "savage Red Indians," because no one else would have them.

They are still here.

Spaz · 04-23-2003, 06:34 PM

Oh no, the pledge. This was being discussed (slightly) in history just yesterday and my teacher seemed to be siding with the people that wanted to keep the pledge the way it was, because he's a christian (he didn't say that, but he is a christian) I don't get it, he's a bright guy and understands history and the nature of people very well, I don't get why he clings to the superstition, oh well, that's a whole different rant. Well it seems that in my state it is actually required to recite the pledge (but I don't, haven't for years before I was an atheist because I thought it was pointless and dumb) but of course they don't enforce it. All this was put in there, what in the 50s? Because of communism? What's the big deal about a 50 year old paranoia?

Biff the unclean · 04-23-2003, 10:41 PM

The pledge started out in this world as a filler for Redbook magazine. It got a little carried away.

Jamie_L · 04-24-2003, 08:31 AM

Religious activities in school only give "hope" to people who believe strongly enough to take those activities seriously. Those kids are currently free to pray in school all they want, to talk to each other about their beliefs, etc. Enforcing religious observances such as prayer or a religious pledge only serves to force the less devout kids to pay lipservcie to these things. None of these kids is going to get anything out of it. And some people are going to be marginalized and stigmatized for not fitting in with the official religion.

There's no value added. If people want their kids to be religious in school, they should tell their kids to be religious in school. If they don't trust their kids to follow their instructions, then they've got a bigger problem than a school administrator with a prayer book can solve. If people want to force other people's kids to be religious in school, then they need to move to a theocratic nation that doesn't believe in freedom of conscience.

Jamie

Shadowy Man · 04-24-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaz
Oh no, the pledge. This was being discussed (slightly) in history just yesterday and my teacher seemed to be siding with the people that wanted to keep the pledge the way it was, because he's a christian (he didn't say that, but he is a christian).

Yeah, I'd like to keep it the way it was, too. These people should brush up on their history.

CALDONIA · 04-24-2003, 03:38 PM

What is accomplished by the reciting of the Pledge of Allegience (by schoolchildren?). Are they immune from being recruited as spies by enemy regimes via this daily ritual? Or are they better citizens from their recitation? Any studies done on this?

Is the Pledge useless before the addition of the "under God" addition? If not, why is it diminished if that clause were eliminated?

Dogma usually wins over logic, alas.

Shake · 04-25-2003, 07:25 AM

Wow, Corgan! There are so many ways you could have gone with that. For example, you could have reminded them that we fought two World Wars without "under God" being in the PoA. I think you should have stayed with the PoA issue and let them take it to school prayer, and then you could have really taken them apart.

Quote:

Would you rather have our nation humble under God or have ourselves think that we are superior and that there are no moral boundaries? We ARE a nation under God. We are a nation of many faiths giving that freedom by our founding fathers.

Like here, you could have addressed their mistaken "atheists can't have any morals" point that they're trying to make. Then you could have stated that the Founding Fathers knew that there were many different Faiths (even then!) and that's why there is no mention of God in the Constitution! I'd have further addressed that as people coming from religious persecution, this was a reason that they gave us the First Amendment.

Quote:

This whole controversity is just a bunch of whining and arrogance. Ever since prayer has been taken out of our schools, our society has diminished having teenage pregnancy, illegal drug usage, homicides going up.

This whole "point" has been widely debunked or at least discredited with respect to the removal of prayer having any effect on the amount of crime or "immoral" acts.

Quote:

Was it very sweet of people to keep turning their backs away from God? Back in the Old Testament, God freed the Jewish people from the Egyptians. However, despite the sacred meeting at Mt. Sinah, they turned their back on the Lord and worshipped idols. Thus, they didn't meet the Promise Land for 40 years. The Lord was forced to bring punishment upon the people. If not, they would continue to do the evil that they were doing.

Please think about how God is feeling about how all the sin going on in America. Imagine how fortunate we are that we don't suffer as much as we should. We truly do have a merciful God. He loves us. He wants us to turn back to him. If there were no tragedies or deaths, etc, going on, then we probably wouldn't have as many religious people in America. We would probably feel arrogant and feel that we don't need God, since nothing is going wrong. A lot more sin would be happening. A lot more people would be emotionally and physically hurt from adultury, stealing, lying, etc. Our world would be chaos. Tragedies are supposed to test the believer's faith and for the unbeliever it is a call to come to God.

Remember, the Lord certain things sins for a reason. He wants us to love Him and to love others.

Funny how an all-powerful deity could not make us love him, not sin, etc. Funny how an omniscient deity couldn't forsee that his creations would turn against him.

Quote:

Satanic prayers and paganism would definitely be a bad idea, because they do not promote the universal "good" or universal morals. Our schools don't need any more bad influences as the youth already have. Christian prayers would be a good influence. Isn't part of school about growing up to be mature American citizens?

Right! And good American citizens are free to practice any religion they see fit, or *gasp* NONE! :banghead: What about Humanist morals? Are they not universal?

And the source of this last quote?

Quote:

By the way, I am not an old person from the era of when school had prayer. I am actually a high school student as of right now.

Well, that's pretty obvious. I don't mean this as a knock on our high school-aged members here on II, you all are smarter than this kid. She/he just is very close-minded and still probably goes by what mommy and daddy tell her/him.

Pyrrho · 04-25-2003, 01:54 PM

Here is a link to a site that tells of the history of the pledge:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofhe...fc_pledge.html

According to them, "under God" was added June 14, 1954, over 60 years after the pledge was first written. So one could even say that instead of keeping us free of the 'vices of modernity', the addition of "under God" may have been one of the causes of them.

beoba · 04-25-2003, 09:16 PM

Go for it, Shake.

:D

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04-23-2003, 05:24 PM	#2
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	You have to remember the early history of our country. There were any number of nasty mean spirited religious groups annoying the hell out of the people in Europe. Cromwell and his Puritans and the genocide of the Irish comes to mind. Eventually the Europeans rose up and forced these groups out. They headed to the new world to live with the "savage Red Indians," because no one else would have them. They are still here.

04-23-2003, 06:34 PM	#3
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Oh no, the pledge. This was being discussed (slightly) in history just yesterday and my teacher seemed to be siding with the people that wanted to keep the pledge the way it was, because he's a christian (he didn't say that, but he is a christian) I don't get it, he's a bright guy and understands history and the nature of people very well, I don't get why he clings to the superstition, oh well, that's a whole different rant. Well it seems that in my state it is actually required to recite the pledge (but I don't, haven't for years before I was an atheist because I thought it was pointless and dumb) but of course they don't enforce it. All this was put in there, what in the 50s? Because of communism? What's the big deal about a 50 year old paranoia?

04-23-2003, 10:41 PM	#4
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	The pledge started out in this world as a filler for Redbook magazine. It got a little carried away.

04-24-2003, 08:31 AM	#5
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Religious activities in school only give "hope" to people who believe strongly enough to take those activities seriously. Those kids are currently free to pray in school all they want, to talk to each other about their beliefs, etc. Enforcing religious observances such as prayer or a religious pledge only serves to force the less devout kids to pay lipservcie to these things. None of these kids is going to get anything out of it. And some people are going to be marginalized and stigmatized for not fitting in with the official religion. There's no value added. If people want their kids to be religious in school, they should tell their kids to be religious in school. If they don't trust their kids to follow their instructions, then they've got a bigger problem than a school administrator with a prayer book can solve. If people want to force other people's kids to be religious in school, then they need to move to a theocratic nation that doesn't believe in freedom of conscience. Jamie

04-24-2003, 03:38 PM	#7
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	What is accomplished by the reciting of the Pledge of Allegience (by schoolchildren?). Are they immune from being recruited as spies by enemy regimes via this daily ritual? Or are they better citizens from their recitation? Any studies done on this? Is the Pledge useless before the addition of the "under God" addition? If not, why is it diminished if that clause were eliminated? Dogma usually wins over logic, alas.

04-25-2003, 01:54 PM	#9
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	Here is a link to a site that tells of the history of the pledge: http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofhe...fc_pledge.html According to them, "under God" was added June 14, 1954, over 60 years after the pledge was first written. So one could even say that instead of keeping us free of the 'vices of modernity', the addition of "under God" may have been one of the causes of them.

04-25-2003, 09:16 PM	#10
beoba Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Boston Posts: 699	Go for it, Shake. :D

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