haverbob

I always respect when a moderator decides to chime in, because I respect the experience.
No , because you are attempting to describe the supposed creator in terms that we have created for ourselves (logic, reason....). If something is a timeless entity (which makes no sense according to OUR sense of reason), then suddenly afterwards, this timeless entity is supposed to start making sense, right???. So we put OUR little measuring stick on this concept and say "sorry, this doesn't make sense, at least not according to what my father, mother , friend, cousin , science teacher, professor... has said. I just listed the origin of what you "think" are your own thoughts. I promise you, they are not your own thoughts although you may defend them well and insist they are your own, I beg to disagree. Takes a long time to see through that mess, and any level of education will not help. If anything, it will compound the problem.

JCS

If that is true then it must also be applied to this since it falls under terms we created.

haverbob

Sorry, but I don't think I understood what you meant. Can you explain a little more?

Alan N

Although the gospel references below are metaphor, the last 2 quotes are not so easy to dismiss...the burning of the ungodly is not a creation of this board.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 13:40
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

2 Peter 2:6
If he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Revelation 14

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

haverbob

2 Peter 2:6 is the most convincing, the other is from revelations and not Jesus's words. However, as you mentioned, these are figurative. I still don't see where it is expressely said that one will be sent to hell and burn there forever under the devil's domain. Anyway, this is somewhat of a valid correction that I asked for. Thank you

Alan N

As scripture itself indicates, "All scripture is God breathed". Jesus is supposedly God. All scripture is Jesus breathed. There were many more references that I did not post for sake of brevity.

You cannot retreat to Jesus' quotes only as a source of comfort, as his testimony is the entire bible (at least in as much as I understand it).

riverduck2003

"Nothing is more arrogant than assuming our little subjective experiences and beliefs have ethereal signifance to the point where disbelieving can lead to damnation ."

Imho, our little subjective experiences and beliefs have ethereal significance. Out of a craving for 'physical experiences' was born a foremost reason for the spirit to manifest into matter. However I do concur that disbelieving or believing does not have to lead to damnation or salvation.

"Maybe we need a redeifntion of arrogance cause men who accept the earth as is, and need no supranatural rational for their existence certainly arent."

That is quite a sweeping statement. In all (probably) groups of people some or few would be deemed arrogant compared with the rest.

"Afterall, good in this life isnt worth anything unless you'll be paid eternally for it."
I
I view 'good' in this life as that pleasant experience felt simultaneously by the body and the soul in it. Viewed this way, 'goodness' cannot then be physically valued.

isko

haverbob

You mean Jesus is God and therefore...Strangely enough, Jesus seems to semi contradict the spirit of the "eye for an eye" concept of the old testament with "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". I focus on the words of Jesus because it appears to be God's latest and greatest attempt at instruction (unless you are a Muslim or Morman, I'm not getting in to that right now), and, I have to admit, I like so much of what Jesus said.

My whole idea of God and what Jesus was really trying to do is vastly different then mainstream theists. Best I'll say for now is that I believe that Jesus was trying to "wake people up" to a state of mind that sees reality for what it really is and not how the mind has been trained to look at it. To me, that's what "being saved" was supposed to mean. I'm not talking about a clearer sense of reality in a "scientific accuracy or measurability" sense. It's probably a little more in a psychological sense, but that wouldn't really do either. Maybe spiritual (I like pulling that out when I need a spare word, because there really isn't a good word for what I'm alluding to.).

Alan N

Fair enough. Not sure what to do with that. I would like to know how you arrived at this line of thought however. Was it through personal revelation, family, church?

haverbob

Very astute question. Some of it might be called personal revelation (I suppose). I was brought up a Catholic. Then I moved towards somewhere in between agnostic and atheist. I basically said "I don't know, but I know the bible is wrong" which I think is a fair way to view the "higher belief" concept and I can empathize with atheists who hold this view. Then I read this REALLY weird book called "Awareness" by Anthony DeMello (weirdest book I ever read in my life). In a mere 180, large text pages, my viewpoint on everything changed (love, altruism, suffering, fear, God-no God.....) Now I suppose I would consider myself a "spiritualist" if I need to slap a label on my viewpoint. I saw Jesus and/or God through a different lens that common intellectual education had never shown me (and probably never will). I'll say one thing. Before one even considers the question of God, one needs to understand who is asking the question first (one's self). This is the step that is almost always ignored. People spend little time examining themselves because they live under the common misconception that the solutions to their problems lie in the outside world (science, organized religion, politics....) Therefore, that is where the majority of time is focused. I beg to differ.