Nic Hautamaki

Is there any reason to continue debate with this person, or can I safely write him off as psychotic?


" "If you saw a virtuous nonbeliever--say Ghandi--in hell, impaled wriggling on a stake within a pit of white-hot sulphur while demons whipped him, voice hoarse from screaming, blood flowing from open wounds and boiling from the heat as soon as it leaves his body, would you not feel that a monstrous injustice was taking place? I hope you would. You're saying we deserve it, but you don't really believe it in your gut. I hope. "

Yeah, I have difficulty with this...not gonna lie to you. I have the feelings you describe a lot. I'm a big fan of war movies, especially WWII ones (Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers - my two favs). I have more issues while watching these, strangely (okay, maybe not so strangely) enough, than virtually any other time. The deeds are so heroic, the sacrifices so great...it seems to me at times, that Christian or no, these men deserve some kind of eternal reward, and certainly don't deserve punishment after willing laying their lives down.

That being said, I still hold to my position. We (Christians as well) tend to view ourselves "on a curve." We're better than the other humans, we're not as bad as the baddies, etc. But the real issue, throw away the others, is what a man does with his relationship with God. The other issues we use to cloud that central issue.

Ghandi, for all the good he did, stood before God saying that what he did warrants/obliges God to reward him favorably. The Band of Brothers did honorable deeds, yet in the quiet of their own living rooms came face to face with God and felt that they didn't need his mercy. They didn't submit themselves to God. They said, thanks but no thanks. No Jesus for us. We don't want to worship Him, submit to Him. And that can't be made up for by any shed blood on the battlefield.

You read the book of Job and you get the same message. Job's gripes seem really warranted. They do. Reading it for the first time, you are really on Job's side until God clarifies the issues in the latter chapters.

The issue is sin against God, not man. Even a serial killer can be nice to his own family.

And as for your first point, if someone brutalized my family, there would be no repaying that debt. I have no problem morally/philosophically with eternal torment in general. Yes, it's hard to consider it applied to some when looking at it on face value. But when you watch WWII documentaries on Hitler, you watch documentaries on rapist/serial killers, etc. I have no twinge in my gut whatsoever that eternal punishment is unjust in these cases. It's just harder to view offenses against God on the scale of that magnitude...but they are."

Taffer

>>I have no twinge in my gut whatsoever that eternal punishment is unjust in these cases.<<
Eternal as in never-ending? That's pretty damn heartless. I wouldn't even wish that on Hitler.

When reading stuff like this I have to wonder if these people have really tried to grasp what an eternal punishment or reward means, and exactly how much worse hell would be. If they do see it from the same angle as I do then, well, beurgh. Believing that takes a cast-iron mindset, with the according flexibility.

Jobar

Didn't God create the sinner, and the sin?

(If not, then He isn't omnipotent.)

Doesn't God know from the beginning of time exactly what each of us will decide?

(If not, He is not omniscient.)

Knowing what we will do, if He does not change us or the world to change our evil decision, then God is personally allowing evil, when He has the power to stop it. (Presuming He is indeed omnipotent.) In this case, He is not benevolent.

Nic, you might get through to this guy if you keep pointing out to him the senselessness of his notions about God. How can one sin against the all-powerful and all-benevolent creator of the entire universe? It's simply impossible.

braces_for_impact

He isn't psychotic, though. This is a very common Christian theme. It's crule, babrbaric, unjust, and just plain evil. It is standard Christian dogma nonetheless.

And they claim a moral high ground, that's what gets me!

spacedOut

For intellectuals, I believe that Christianity is an all or nothing proposition. Either you believe in its entirety, or you completely dismiss it.

This causes a problem for some people who, for example, buy into the eternal life thing, but are unable to dismiss the cruel aspects of the faith. Therefore, they will go to great links to defend the absurd because they know that if they dismiss any part, they will have to dismiss the entire package.

I feel for these people because I used to be one of them...

JaeIsGod

Yeah , I cant believe they can live with this shit.
When I was a little christian boy , I often couldnt sleep because I felt so bad for all the people in hell.Luckely he does not exist :d

Alan N

Write off possible agreement, not him. The Christian paradigm is too paralyzing to not grant him some measure of grace

spacedOut
"but are unable to dismiss the cruel aspects of the faith".

The 'faith' is predicated on the notion of sacrifice. Animal for me, Jesus for me, etc. Blood is spiritual currency as far as the Christian is concerned. Jesus was a transaction. Christians were supposedly "bought at a price". This is all perfectly wonderful in the Christian realm. Maybe the Brit's have it right; "bloody well right...bloody this...bloody that". That's what Christianity is...bloody this...bloody that.

Point: The faith is cruel in it's entirety

Wyrdsmyth

It is important to distinguish between not believing something exists and not wanting to "submit" to something. They are two entirely different things.

Spenser

I'm sure Xianity would love to take a true moral high ground and suggest that all good people go to heaven regardless of their faith. But such a belief would leave no reason to be a Xian...

Aravnah Ornan

You may wish to remind that person of the famous Protestant line about all the Nepalese who haven't heard of Christ. Do they deserve an eternity of howling torment for the sin of having been born in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Once, an evangelical Protestant, confronted with that very issue, asked, "Well, shouldn't that fill us with more zeal to witness to them?" Whether it should or shouldn't, that isn't an answer.