Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 04-07-2003, 04:28 PM

Then why does the Catechism say Mary can save souls from Hell and is the way to Heaven?

Do I have to do all your research for you? It seems like if you were really interested in arguing against such doctrines, you'd bother to learn a bit about them first.

Go here for the RC biblical and extrabiblical support of most Marian doctrines. I can't see where Mary is supposed to save anyone from hell or is the way to heaven.

Here is a nice summary of Catholic salvation.

Here is a description on how to become a Catholic.

Neither mentions Mary.

Here is a description of "Salvation outside the church", which you've complained about a couple of times.

Here is a good summary of Catholic doctrine.

Magus55 · 04-07-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Here is a description of "Salvation outside the church", which you've complained about a couple of times.

Did you even read that? It says one that isn't part of the Catholic church can't be saved. Thats not biblical.

And yes, Catholics claim to believe in Jesus and He is in the Catechism. But Mary is exalted above Him, being Given the title Queen of Heaven, which is interesting because Jeremiah describes the pagan goddess named Queen of Heaven that some of the Jews were burning incense too one God yelled at them for their sins and abominations in exalting someone other than God. Even Catholic theologists have stated that many Catholic doctrines come from Pagan origins.

Demigawd · 04-07-2003, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
But Mary is exalted above Him, being Given the title Queen of Heaven

Yeah, but Jesus, supposedly being God and everything, would be supposedly the creator of all things, and thus infinitely above Mary (who regardless of being free of sin is still only human), now wouldn't he? Care to revise your characterization of Catholicism, or are you just content to bash fellow Christians?

Mageth · 04-07-2003, 04:51 PM

Did you even read that? It says one that isn't part of the Catholic church can't be saved. Thats not biblical.

Apparently you didn't read it too well. Actually, it says, and I quote:

Quote:

...while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, "The Necessity of Baptism").

But Mary is exalted above Him

I'm curious; I'd like to see this cited from an "official" Catholic doctrine site.

Magus55 · 04-07-2003, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Here is a description on how to become a Catholic.

Nope, doesn't mention Mary, but doesn't mention that Baptism by Water and Communion is required to be saved, which isn't biblical either.

What difference does Catholic sites make? The Pope issued the Catechism. And he is supposed to be infallible on issues of faith ( ie. the Catechism and Mary, and Sacraments, and interfaith) - yet He completely contradicts the Bible.

When Catholics pray to Mary, there is something wrong about that, since only God should be prayed to ( that and as if Mary, a human can hear all the Catholics prayers

).

Magus55 · 04-07-2003, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demigawd
Yeah, but Jesus, supposedly being God and everything, would be supposedly the creator of all things, and thus infinitely above Mary (who regardless of being free of sin is still only human), now wouldn't he? Care to revise your characterization of Catholicism, or are you just content to bash fellow Christians?

Yes, God is infinitely above her, yet she is prayed to, worshipped, and said that she can save people from Hell.

Amaranth · 04-07-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

What difference does Catholic sites make? The Pope issued the Catechism.

Excellent. Then the reference and proof should be easy to find. Have at it.

Demigawd · 04-07-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
When Catholics pray to Mary, there is something wrong about that, since only God should be prayed to.

Actually, the tradition is praying to Mary for her to have a little talk, on your behalf, with her son/father of her son.

cricket · 04-07-2003, 04:57 PM

Quote:

God is infinitely above her, yet she is prayed to, worshipped, and said that she can save people from Hell.

Of course it makes no sense, Magus; it's a belief as ridiculous as any of yours.

Mageth · 04-07-2003, 04:59 PM

Nope, doesn't mention Mary, but doesn't mention that Baptism by Water and Communion is required to be saved, which isn't biblical either.

I think you mean it does mention Baptism by Water and Communion as necessities. And according to the Catholics, it is biblical. You just interpret it differently.

What difference does Catholic sites make?

The difference is I trust their explanations of Catholic doctrine over your interpretation of the doctrine by a long shot!

The Pope issued the Catechism. And he is supposed to be infallible on issues of faith ( ie. the Catechism and Mary, and Sacraments, and interfaith) - yet He completely contradicts the Bible.

Not if you ask him.

When Catholics pray to Mary, there is something wrong about that,

Well of course there is, according to your protestant interpretation....

...since only God should be prayed to ( that and as if Mary, a human can hear all the Catholics prayers ).

Again, that's your interpretation of scripture; the catholics have their own interpretation.

And as if god, an imaginary being, is hearing anyone's prayers.

BTW, they pray to Mary as an intercessor or intermediary to God. Whatever grace is given is given by God, through Mary.

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04-07-2003, 04:28 PM	#161
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Then why does the Catechism say Mary can save souls from Hell and is the way to Heaven? Do I have to do all your research for you? It seems like if you were really interested in arguing against such doctrines, you'd bother to learn a bit about them first. Go here for the RC biblical and extrabiblical support of most Marian doctrines. I can't see where Mary is supposed to save anyone from hell or is the way to heaven. Here is a nice summary of Catholic salvation. Here is a description on how to become a Catholic. Neither mentions Mary. Here is a description of "Salvation outside the church", which you've complained about a couple of times. Here is a good summary of Catholic doctrine.

04-07-2003, 04:59 PM	#170
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Nope, doesn't mention Mary, but doesn't mention that Baptism by Water and Communion is required to be saved, which isn't biblical either. I think you mean it does mention Baptism by Water and Communion as necessities. And according to the Catholics, it is biblical. You just interpret it differently. What difference does Catholic sites make? The difference is I trust their explanations of Catholic doctrine over your interpretation of the doctrine by a long shot! The Pope issued the Catechism. And he is supposed to be infallible on issues of faith ( ie. the Catechism and Mary, and Sacraments, and interfaith) - yet He completely contradicts the Bible. Not if you ask him. When Catholics pray to Mary, there is something wrong about that, Well of course there is, according to your protestant interpretation.... ...since only God should be prayed to ( that and as if Mary, a human can hear all the Catholics prayers ). Again, that's your interpretation of scripture; the catholics have their own interpretation. And as if god, an imaginary being, is hearing anyone's prayers. BTW, they pray to Mary as an intercessor or intermediary to God. Whatever grace is given is given by God, through Mary.

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