Worldtraveller

This may need to go in a different thread....

Amongst the various arguments about defining agnosticism, there have been a few references to Taoism as a religion being analagous to agnosticism (the unknowable).
I don't wanna nitpick, but I'm gonna.....

Taoism is not a religion, in that it doesn't define how one should live, or express any views either positive or negative about any sort of intelligent creator of the universe. It really is more of a philosophical way of viewing the world and attempting to live in balance, with respect to nature/society/oneself.

I have read a couple of translations of the Tao te Ching and found it to be very enlightening. Hope this helps clarify this at
least.

If anyone is interested in starting another thread on this, I'd be happy to tag along...

Wyz_sub10

I'm not sure how:

differs significantly from:

Without knowing more detail, it seems that Taoism does, at the very least, invole guidelines and a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things.

If one strives to live in balance, than that means this balance is prefered. As such, there is a way one should live - in balance.

In any case, this is a separate topic for a different forum, I think.

AquaVita

Perhaps Non-abrahamic? I'll try it out there.

lugotorix

Well, it's quite different from most other major religions in that it doesn't require belief in a god, but then neither do Jainism or Buddhism. What distinguishes it and these other non-theistic religions from "mere" philosophy is that they teach a soteriology, or theory of salvation. Taoism does define how one should live if it says you should attempt to live in harmony with nature, etc. It's not a hard-sell like the Abrahamic traditions, but it's still advocating a type of salvation.

I liked the Tao Te Ching and also Chuang-tzu's writings. I discovered them when I was a teenager and found they were just what I needed, after being raised as a fundie. I eventually gravitated to Buddhism, though; it seemed a bit more grounded and accessible to me.

lugotorix

One Winged Angel

As I understand it, agnosticism states we cannot know wether or not a deity exists(or is it we do not, I forget). In either cases, I think you have Taoism's lack of a personal diety confused with lack of any supernatural powers. The opening of the Tao Te Ching does indeed say that the Tao which can be followed is not the true Tao, but it does not say that there might not be a Tao.

Also, Taoism does give guidelines on how to live, it's just that there are not many Taoist that see them as absolutes, nor do they bash us over the head with them. "The way to heaven is to help and not harm," the last line of the Tao Te Ching. That seems to me to be a guideline. It may seem obvious, you say, but so is "Thou shall not kill."

As a side note, I have more respect for Taoism than any other religion. They admit that as mortals, we cannot understand the immortal. They stress that we should look inside of ourselves for answers. They look to preserve balance, something few other religions do. Wether or not they officially are a religion(I think they "officially" are, but it's a matter of word definitions), they still deserve our respect.

Lohan

One Winged Angel, I think there are some agnostics who would say we do not know whether there is a god at the moment, and are suspending judgement until we do, and then some who would say it is impossible to know. To me, both are still agnostics.

Since beginning martial arts I've been very interested in Taoism, and read translations online of the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu. Like most have said, Taoism is about balance, although I see it not just as balance with nature but balance with everything (including the things which we cannot see). We can observe examples of this balance in nature and that is how we learn how we should live.

I don't think a religion has to posit some sort of god to be an official "religion" and one of Taoism's most attractive aspects for me has always been the sort of "If there is a god(s), who cares? You can't look to them for answers for all those answers can only be found inside yourself." I view omnipotent deities like Yahweh as sort of a security blanket, but looking for salvation within as the ultimate example of having confidence in yourself and your own senses.

Or as a Taoist would probably say, "Is Taoism a 'religion' or a 'philosophy'? Who cares!"

andy_d

1) Taoism absolutely defines how one should live. That's the whole point. One should follow the Tao in all things.

2) What has a creator got to do with qualifying as a religion? Some religions concern themselves with the origins of the universe, some don't.

kctan

Taoism is & isn't a religion. Depends on how one practices it.

If you follow the Tao De Ching, no religion is involved.

If you revered the 3 'Qing' then religion is involved.

If you followed the Taoism of local beliefs, then religion is definitely involved. It consists of a heaven full of deities, gods, demons etc...

Taoism itself is not so simple as what many of you would think it is. A study of it's history & how it becomes part of the daily live of the people will give you more insight into what it really is.

For variety & diversity, go for Taiwan, Malaysia & Singapore. For historical it can only be China.

Ever heard of 'Wu Do Mi', 'Yi Guan Dao' or 'Chuan Zhen Dao' ?

BTW Following the 'Dao' does not define a way of living for it's followers. The 'Dao' is every where & you're actually following it when you least expect it.

The 'Way' of the 'Dao' cannot be explained nor found, how can you define it for people to follow ?

Arken

Another argument for calling Taoism a religion is that there are hints of the supernatural in it.

For example (from Peter Merel's wonderful translation of the Tao Te Ching):

Now you could say, "oh well that's just metaphoric" but isn't that a similar explanation that some Christians give when parts of the bible are put into question? Sure, all of these texts are left open to interpretation and the language barrier makes this even more complex but I think one can argue that there is a certain amount of supernatural mysticism in Taoism based on writings like this.

Clivedurdle

Ursula le Guin was brought up with the Tao te Ching and has made a translation.

Sci fi is probably one of the main reasons for me moving from charismatic fundamentalism.

"The way you can go isn't the real way. the name you can say isn't the real name."

"Thirty spokes meet in the hub. Where the wheel isn't is where it's useful. Hollowed out, clay makes a pot. Where the pot's not is where it's useful."

The zen idea of what is the sound of one hand clapping is from this way of thinking.

i'm learning Tai Chi badly! This is the base of many martial arts and I think shows that Taoism is far more than balance, a religion or a philosophy.

I think it has a real scientific observational basis - a form of action research about how and why our bodies and minds really work