Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Paddy · 08-07-2002, 12:03 AM

Hi all,

I recently got into a debate on whether or not there exists a "spiritual realm". I personally do not believe in any such thing, however my girlfriend, with whom I was debating, claims that her subjective experiences are enough to account for and convince her of its existence. I attempted to argue that these sensory experiences are simply the result of electrochemical processes within the brain and nothing more (admitedly, I have no real knowledge on the subject. I am however, very keen to learn). The debate remains unresolved.

I would be interested in hearing the thoughts on this matter of anyone who is knowledgeable, or interested, in neuroscience and its affects regarding spiritual experiences.

cheers,
Paddy

Plebe · 08-07-2002, 12:30 AM

"Spiritual realm", "Paranormal", "things that go bumb in the night" are certainly an area of interest to many because of people's apparent experiences that remain in the areas of the "unexplained." For example, I know a retired mortuary technician who claims that he and his buddies would not infrequently see the recently [he says within hours of death] deceased "pop through" the wall to observe the mortician preparation and then vanish within minutes. He was unnerved in the beginning of his career when this would occur and the senior mortician just assured him that "You'll get used to it." By the way, the "visitations" appeared to be curious as well as seeming relieved in all the cases he claims they saw together. This retired friend of mine feels it is best to just keep an open mind about life and this type of unexplained phenomena after experiencing them first hand. I think it is important to avail yourself of as much knowledge as possible with respect to Psychology, Psychiatry and Neurology/Brain Anatomy and Physiology so you can objectively analyze claims of subjective experiences such as "spiritual realms" which can also be a psychological projection or wishful thinking on the part of the experiencer vs. a true unexplainable ocurrence.

Hi all,
I recently got into a debate on whether or not there exists a "spiritual realm". I personally do not believe in any such thing, however my girlfriend, with whom I was debating, claims that her subjective experiences are enough to account for and convince her of its existence. I attempted to argue that these sensory experiences are simply the result of electrochemical processes within the brain and nothing more (admitedly, I have no real knowledge on the subject. I am however, very keen to learn). The debate remains unresolved.

I would be interested in hearing the thoughts on this matter of anyone who is knowledgeable, or interested, in neuroscience and its affects regarding spiritual experiences.

cheers,
Paddy

excreationist · 08-07-2002, 01:27 AM

Paddy:
"...I attempted to argue that these sensory experiences are simply the result of electrochemical processes within the brain and nothing more..."

That's a not a very satisfying explanation at all...

This is my basic framework for thinking about adult human-level consciousness...

Quote:

The hierarchy of intelligent systems:

1. Processing Systems [or Programmed Systems]
...receive [or detect], process and respond to input.

2. Aware Systems
...receive input and respond according to its goals/desires and beliefs learnt through experience about how the world works
(self-motivated, acting on self-learnt beliefs) ["self" refers to the system as a whole]

This learning can lead to more sophisticated self-motivated intelligence. This is taken straight from <a href="http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/cogsys/piaget.html" target="_blank">Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development</a>. I hope to eventually integrate this with my generalized framework.

2. Sensorimotor stage (Infancy).
In this period (which has 6 stages), intelligence is demonstrated through motor activity without the use of symbols. Knowledge of the world is limited (but developing) because its based on physical interactions / experiences. Children acquire object permanence at about 7 months of age (memory). Physical development (mobility) allows the child to begin developing new intellectual abilities. Some symbollic (language) abilities are developed at the end of this stage.

3. Pre-operational stage (Toddler and Early Childhood).
In this period (which has two substages), intelligence is demonstrated through the use of symbols, language use matures, and memory and imagination are developed, but thinking is done in a nonlogical, nonreversable manner. Egocentric thinking predominates

4. Concrete operational stage (Elementary and early adolescence).
In this stage (characterized by 7 types of conservation: number, length, liquid, mass, weight, area, volume), intelligence is demonstarted through logical and systematic manipulation of symbols related to concrete objects. Operational thinking develops (mental actions that are reversible). Egocentric thought diminishes.

5. Formal operational stage (Adolescence and adulthood).
In this stage, intelligence is demonstrated through the logical use of symbols related to abstract concepts. Early in the period there is a return to egocentric thought. Only 35% of high school graduates in industrialized countries obtain formal operations; many people do not think formally during adulthood.

Also, have a read through <a href="http://www.armory.com/~moe/8psyu.htm" target="_blank">this webpage</a> and <a href="http://nivea.psycho.univ-paris5.fr/ASSChtml/ASSC.html" target="_blank">this one</a>.
That last link has some experiments to try out on yourself.
I think we have beliefs, goals, desires, etc... these are stored and transmitted using electrochemical processes I think, but they are specially organized processes - just like a snowflake is specially organized water - not just any old water.

Paddy · 08-07-2002, 03:25 AM

Ex:
"That's not a very satisfying explanation at all..."

I know, It is definitely a very poor explanation, hence the reason for my original post.

My (uneducated) argument was that supernatural/spiritual experiences are not experienced,external phenomena, but rather, these supposed palpable experiences are the result of internal electrochemical proceses. For example, the relationship between dopamine and schizophrenia seem to be indicative of imbalances, or overutilisation of particular neurotransmitters having a significant affect on one's perceived reality. According to the dopamine theory of schizophrenia, delusions and faulty perception of reality could be attributed to dopamine imbalances; could supernatural/spiritual experiences be explained in a similar fashion?

excreationist · 08-07-2002, 03:59 AM

I don't know much about the brain, but I'd guess that neurotransmitters are used to transmit information throughout the brain. If they aren't being transmitted properly then there would be distorted experiences (which just involved information) and emotional responses (e.g. depression/mania)...
So this supports the idea that our mind, personality and experiences have a physical basis.
Anyway, I think you should read through those lins... what you need to do is to communicate to her at her level better... I think talking just about dopamine, etc, doesn't seem very satisfying in explaining how experience "feels" real, etc - and how we're conscious...
You could ask her if she thinks if plants and insects are just made out of physical matter or if there is something more to them. If she says that they're just physical matter, you could ask if she thinks dogs and chimps are just matter or if they involve something more, like a soul...
If she thinks that plants, insects or mammals are more than matter then you should be talking to her about that because that is a much more extreme view than people being more that physical matter...

Also, in my first post I talked about Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development. I'd say that at the last stages we have full human-level consciousness. Chimps would only be able to reach the earlier stages. You could ask her when she thinks this "soul" (or detached "observer") emerges... would a fertilized egg be conscious? Or a newborn infant? Would they have access to this spiritual realm?

If you can understand her beliefs better then you would be more likely to be able to alter them.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]

HelenM · 08-07-2002, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy:
The debate remains unresolved.

I think that sums it up

I.e. in general it is unresolved as well as between you and your girlfriend. Probably you'll find that the opinions of people about it are very highly correlated with whether they believe in supernatural things/being(s) or not a priori.

Btw I'd be a bit careful about 'debating' your girlfriend. The better you do in the debate the worse effects it could have on your relationship...or maybe I am underestimating her ability to handle being forcefully disagreed with on what is rather a personal topic.

Helen

excreationist · 08-07-2002, 04:22 AM

You know there are lots of atheists that believe that there is more to the world than ordinary physical matter and energy - in order to explain consciousness.
Just because a person believes that a consciousness realm exists, it doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in supernatural things like angels, gods and ghosts... or the afterlife...
I don't think it is a very harmful belief to have really... unless you're a neuroscientist - then you mightn't explore things in enough detail...

RobertE · 08-07-2002, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plebe:
For example, I know a retired mortuary technician who claims that he and his buddies would not infrequently see the recently [he says within hours of death] deceased "pop through" the wall to observe the mortician preparation and then vanish within minutes. He was unnerved in the beginning of his career when this would occur and the senior mortician just assured him that "You'll get used to it." By the way, the "visitations" appeared to be curious as well as seeming relieved in all the cases he claims they saw together.

Does your friend happen to write for the HBO series "Six Feet Under"? Visitations by the recently deceased are one of the common subplots.

Plebe · 08-07-2002, 03:13 PM

Reply to RobertE:
Does your friend happen to write for the HBO series "Six Feet Under"? Visitations by the recently deceased are one of the common subplots.

LOL! Is there really such a series? I don't watch many TV shows outside of CNN,MSNBC and local news coverage but sure notice alot of shows flipping through the channels on late at night concerning the metaphysical such as "Unsolved Mysteries" and the like.

MortalWombat · 08-07-2002, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy:
...my girlfriend, with whom I was debating, claims that her subjective experiences are enough to account for and convince her of its existence.

There are so many different kinds of "spiritual experiences," in many cases depending on the culture that the person is brought up in. In addition, many of them are contradictory to each other, so that they can't all be true. So how do we determine which ones are true and which ones aren't, if they are all based on subjective experiences? And if personal subjective experience is all that is required to convince someone of the paranormal or spiritual, then doesn't the lack of any such experiences by many (most?) people count as negative evidence?

08-07-2002, 12:03 AM	#1
Paddy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 47	Spiritual realm Hi all, I recently got into a debate on whether or not there exists a "spiritual realm". I personally do not believe in any such thing, however my girlfriend, with whom I was debating, claims that her subjective experiences are enough to account for and convince her of its existence. I attempted to argue that these sensory experiences are simply the result of electrochemical processes within the brain and nothing more (admitedly, I have no real knowledge on the subject. I am however, very keen to learn). The debate remains unresolved. I would be interested in hearing the thoughts on this matter of anyone who is knowledgeable, or interested, in neuroscience and its affects regarding spiritual experiences. cheers, Paddy

08-07-2002, 03:59 AM	#5
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	I don't know much about the brain, but I'd guess that neurotransmitters are used to transmit information throughout the brain. If they aren't being transmitted properly then there would be distorted experiences (which just involved information) and emotional responses (e.g. depression/mania)... So this supports the idea that our mind, personality and experiences have a physical basis. Anyway, I think you should read through those lins... what you need to do is to communicate to her at her level better... I think talking just about dopamine, etc, doesn't seem very satisfying in explaining how experience "feels" real, etc - and how we're conscious... You could ask her if she thinks if plants and insects are just made out of physical matter or if there is something more to them. If she says that they're just physical matter, you could ask if she thinks dogs and chimps are just matter or if they involve something more, like a soul... If she thinks that plants, insects or mammals are more than matter then you should be talking to her about that because that is a much more extreme view than people being more that physical matter... Also, in my first post I talked about Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development. I'd say that at the last stages we have full human-level consciousness. Chimps would only be able to reach the earlier stages. You could ask her when she thinks this "soul" (or detached "observer") emerges... would a fertilized egg be conscious? Or a newborn infant? Would they have access to this spiritual realm? If you can understand her beliefs better then you would be more likely to be able to alter them. [ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

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08-07-2002, 12:30 AM	#2
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	"Spiritual realm", "Paranormal", "things that go bumb in the night" are certainly an area of interest to many because of people's apparent experiences that remain in the areas of the "unexplained." For example, I know a retired mortuary technician who claims that he and his buddies would not infrequently see the recently [he says within hours of death] deceased "pop through" the wall to observe the mortician preparation and then vanish within minutes. He was unnerved in the beginning of his career when this would occur and the senior mortician just assured him that "You'll get used to it." By the way, the "visitations" appeared to be curious as well as seeming relieved in all the cases he claims they saw together. This retired friend of mine feels it is best to just keep an open mind about life and this type of unexplained phenomena after experiencing them first hand. I think it is important to avail yourself of as much knowledge as possible with respect to Psychology, Psychiatry and Neurology/Brain Anatomy and Physiology so you can objectively analyze claims of subjective experiences such as "spiritual realms" which can also be a psychological projection or wishful thinking on the part of the experiencer vs. a true unexplainable ocurrence. Hi all, I recently got into a debate on whether or not there exists a "spiritual realm". I personally do not believe in any such thing, however my girlfriend, with whom I was debating, claims that her subjective experiences are enough to account for and convince her of its existence. I attempted to argue that these sensory experiences are simply the result of electrochemical processes within the brain and nothing more (admitedly, I have no real knowledge on the subject. I am however, very keen to learn). The debate remains unresolved. I would be interested in hearing the thoughts on this matter of anyone who is knowledgeable, or interested, in neuroscience and its affects regarding spiritual experiences. cheers, Paddy

08-07-2002, 03:25 AM	#4
Paddy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 47	Ex: "That's not a very satisfying explanation at all..." I know, It is definitely a very poor explanation, hence the reason for my original post. My (uneducated) argument was that supernatural/spiritual experiences are not experienced,external phenomena, but rather, these supposed palpable experiences are the result of internal electrochemical proceses. For example, the relationship between dopamine and schizophrenia seem to be indicative of imbalances, or overutilisation of particular neurotransmitters having a significant affect on one's perceived reality. According to the dopamine theory of schizophrenia, delusions and faulty perception of reality could be attributed to dopamine imbalances; could supernatural/spiritual experiences be explained in a similar fashion?

08-07-2002, 04:22 AM	#7
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	You know there are lots of atheists that believe that there is more to the world than ordinary physical matter and energy - in order to explain consciousness. Just because a person believes that a consciousness realm exists, it doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in supernatural things like angels, gods and ghosts... or the afterlife... I don't think it is a very harmful belief to have really... unless you're a neuroscientist - then you mightn't explore things in enough detail...

08-07-2002, 03:13 PM	#9
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	Reply to RobertE: Does your friend happen to write for the HBO series "Six Feet Under"? Visitations by the recently deceased are one of the common subplots. LOL! Is there really such a series? I don't watch many TV shows outside of CNN,MSNBC and local news coverage but sure notice alot of shows flipping through the channels on late at night concerning the metaphysical such as "Unsolved Mysteries" and the like.

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