Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Harumi · 06-12-2002, 04:34 PM

I know that this is the wrong forum to post this plea, but I figured that I do indeed need support, and I need help right now! Please!

I need questions answered. I need sources. Lists of books. Books. Not websites, for a fifteen page paper due at the end of the year. I don't know where to find any of it. I've never been good at searching for stuff on the internet.

I've heard of Smith's Wager (or some other wager that counters Pascal's at any rate). Who's Smith? What's the wager about?

I need books discussing his wager be it criticizing or complimenting it. I also need the same for books discussing Pascal's wager. I need as much as I can. Theist/Christian apologetic books are welcome as well.

Please help! And please, please, please, please don't ignore this! I'm worried, and I really need these books soon, or sites that can definitely suggest books.

If you bother to help me, thank you! This is the only place I could think of for help!

Dephanie

Toto · 06-12-2002, 04:42 PM

Smith is George Smith. Check the books at the end of this excerpt from:

<a href="http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/pascals_wager.html" target="_blank">http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/pascals_wager.html</a>

Quote:

Back in the 1970s, philosopher George H. Smith (author of Atheism: The Case Against God) delivered a talk to the Society of Separationists in which he focused on Pascal's Wager. He devised a counter wager which runs like this:

The existence of god can be proven only by reason, and our reason tells us that such a being does not exist, and that, as a consequence, belief in this being should be rejected by rational people. Now the question arises, "But we are fallible human beings. What if our reason is wrong here? What if there is a god who will punish us for non-belief, and whose existence cannot be proven by reason?" Here is where Smith's wager comes in. Wager on reason, Smith says. This should lead you to atheism. There are only four possibilities, as follows:

1) There is no god. The atheist is correct, and consequently lives a happy, fulfilling life free of mindless dogma and emotional tyranny.

2) The second possibility is the god of deism, who was said to have created the universe and then left it to run on its own. There is nothing to fear from such a god; he or she is impersonal and does not reward or punish us.

3) This third possibility is a god that is concerned with humanity. He is a fair and just god. Such a god, in his infinite goodness would never punish anyone for honest errors of reason, assuming of course that there is no moral turpitude involved. Here again we have no reason to fear such a god. In fact, if our reason is what separates us from the animals, then not to use it might be construed as the gravest of "sins." If anyone is in danger of punishment here, it is the theist, and not the atheist.

4) The last possibility concerns an unjust god. Unconcerned with justice, he will burn us whether our mistakes are honest or not. There is, after all, no greater injustice than to punish someone for an honest error of belief, and yet that is just what this fourth god, the Christian god, promises to do. He is unconcerned with issues such as honesty and intellectual integrity and, according to the Bible, will burn us eternally if we doubt his existence. No matter what kind of life we have led, this issue is central in determining where we will spend eternity. Gullibility thus becomes a virtue rather than a vice. Therefore, by definition, this fourth god is a most unprincipalled deity. Christians have always felt that they are in a better position here, but if one thinks about it, they are really in the same boat as the atheist. Why? Simply because, if this god really gets such a thrill out of creating people just to burn them, what could give him greater enjoyment than to promise the Christian eternal bliss and then turn around and burn him too? Certainly, you cannot trust the word of an unjust god when he promises you something, since he must have a sadistic streak in him to begin with.

This then is the wager: Use you reason in all areas of human endeavor, including religion. This should lead you to atheism. If there is no god, you are correct. If the Deistic god exists, you have nothing to fear. If a just god exists, there is again nothing to fear; the only one who is at risk is the believer. And if the fourth god exists, we do indeed live in a nightmarish universe, but the Christian is in no better position than the atheist, so why not live our lives as rational human beings? Why not do all we can to make this world, our only home, a better place and do all we can to make life worthwhile and enjoyable for all? In Smith's wager, there truly is nothing to lose!

REFERENCES
1) Gambling on God: Essays on Pascal's Wager Edited by Jeff Jordan. Published 1994 by Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, Inc.
2) Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith. Published by Prometheus Books.
3) Atheism: A Philosophical Justification by Michael Martin. Published by Temple University Press.
4) Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker. Published by FFRF, Inc.
5) Lucifer's Handbook by Lee Carter. Published by Academic Associates.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Toto · 06-12-2002, 04:52 PM

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=43" target="_blank">Atheism: The Case Against God</a> in the Infidels Library

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/george_smith/defending.html" target="_blank">Smith's Wager</a> from 1976 speech by George Smith

Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic. Good luck on your paper.

AspenMama · 06-12-2002, 08:58 PM

I think you might get a better response here:

Bill Snedden · 06-12-2002, 09:21 PM

I can suggest a couple of sources:

Pascal, Blaise. Pens�es, section 233. (the source for Pascal's "wager"; the text can be found online <a href="http://www.orst.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/pascal/pensees-contents.html" target="_blank">here</a>)

Mackie, J.L. The Miracle of Theism. (Mackie discusses Pascal's wager on p. 200-203)

Also, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a section on Pascal's "wager" <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/" target="_blank">here</a>. While I understand you don't want online sources, the <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#Bib" target="_blank">bibliography</a> to this entry has several promising looking "hard-copy" sources.

Good luck!

Bill

06-12-2002, 04:34 PM	#1
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	Research...sources...need now...HELP HELP HELP!!! I know that this is the wrong forum to post this plea, but I figured that I do indeed need support, and I need help right now! Please! I need questions answered. I need sources. Lists of books. Books. Not websites, for a fifteen page paper due at the end of the year. I don't know where to find any of it. I've never been good at searching for stuff on the internet. I've heard of Smith's Wager (or some other wager that counters Pascal's at any rate). Who's Smith? What's the wager about? I need books discussing his wager be it criticizing or complimenting it. I also need the same for books discussing Pascal's wager. I need as much as I can. Theist/Christian apologetic books are welcome as well. Please help! And please, please, please, please don't ignore this! I'm worried, and I really need these books soon, or sites that can definitely suggest books. If you bother to help me, thank you! This is the only place I could think of for help! Dephanie

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06-12-2002, 04:52 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=43" target="_blank">Atheism: The Case Against God</a> in the Infidels Library <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/george_smith/defending.html" target="_blank">Smith's Wager</a> from 1976 speech by George Smith Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic. Good luck on your paper.

06-12-2002, 08:58 PM	#4
AspenMama Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,311	I think you might get a better response here:

06-12-2002, 09:21 PM	#5
Bill Snedden Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,597	I can suggest a couple of sources: Pascal, Blaise. Pens�es, section 233. (the source for Pascal's "wager"; the text can be found online <a href="http://www.orst.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/pascal/pensees-contents.html" target="_blank">here</a>) Mackie, J.L. The Miracle of Theism. (Mackie discusses Pascal's wager on p. 200-203) Also, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a section on Pascal's "wager" <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/" target="_blank">here</a>. While I understand you don't want online sources, the <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#Bib" target="_blank">bibliography</a> to this entry has several promising looking "hard-copy" sources. Good luck! Bill

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