Bill Snedden

We spend a fair amount of time debating the "faith of the founding fathers" with accomodationists of varying stripes, but in reality, who cares?

Why does it matter so much whether or not Washington said a prayer once in a while or went to church? Why should it make a difference whether James Madison believed in a physical resurrection or not? Why should Thomas Jefferson's opinion on the divinity of Christ have any bearing on church-state separation?

In short, it doesn't. IMNSHO, the entire question is nothing but a self-serving strawman constructed by the religious right to draw attention away from the real question: what did the framers think was the correct relationship of religion and the state? That question is, IMO, much easier to answer, but that answer doesn't fit the radical religious right's agenda.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Toto

Why is this important? When the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution, at least some of the Justices take the intent of the framers as a guide to interpretation. The Religious Right is trying to show that the men who wrote the First Amendment could not have meant for church and state to be completely separate because they did or said x y and z.

Muffinstuffer

You DO realize I'm being sarcastic and not the least bit serious when I correct myself, right?

Rational BAC

I think I said this on another thread which I cannot find right now-------------But---

It makes absolutely no difference what the personal beliefs of the founders of this nation were. Some were deists. some were Christians, some were atheists. Some didn't give a damn.

What is important and the only thing that is important ---is what they created, together, as a group in pretty much secret session. And what they decided to create as a group was ----

--- BINGO --------

A SECULAR HUMANIST document ascribing to the OVERWHELMING political, theological and philosophical trend of the times --------which was permeated by Deism and scepticism and anti-clericalism and doubts and questioning of all kinds -----during that very strange period in world history that happened at the end of the 18th century and is now called "the Age of Enlightenment"

That is the reality of the writing of the Constitution. That is the history behind the Constitution. The Constitution as a secular and humanist document is what we have to live with. Truly. ----- The rest is just bullcrap.

(Sorry for the stream of consciousness type diatribe)

Forget it Fundies. Spin all you want to----personal religious opinions of our founders are of no importance at all.

We are a secular nation. Designed that way on purpose by our Founders no matter their personal beliefs. Live with it. Deal with it. Do not spin with it.

It makes absolutely no difference and is of no importance whatsoever what Jefferson or Madison or Franklin or Adams or Washington ----------or any of them had as their own personal beliefs about Christianity. The only thing that is of value as far as determining what this very diverse group of people wanted to create is ------------

WHAT THEY CREATED.---- in concert together.

Again---a secular and humanist document which we call the Constitution.

Rational BAC

The United States of America is NOT a Christian nation.

The United States of America IS a SECULAR nation.

It is an unspeakable dishonor to all those Christian founders who "stuffed it" (so to speak) in order to make a nation that has lasted now over 200 years ----because of their wisdom to give in.----and to forget their personal beliefs.

Repeat---------It is a serious waste of time and a dishonor to our founders to pry into their personal beliefs.

Forget their personal beliefs. Unimportant. Remember what they did.

Jewel

Arguing that the framers wanted a Christian nation because they were all Christians is disingenuous at best. Even if the framers were all Christians it would not make the country they founded a Christian nation. If they intended a Christian nation they would have put that in the Constitution. They didn't simply overlook mentioning it.

The people that argue that are assuming that every Christian would obviously want church and state to be combined. That is simply not true -- 200+ years ago, or today. The framers were very familiar with how theocracies work and how theocratic governments infringed on what should be the rights of the people. They wanted something better for this country. If they wanted a theocracy, they would have put that into the constitution.

I'm not sure we'll ever know with 100% certainty what the beliefs of all the framers were. Most of them were very private men and like other people they changed over time and were at times contradictory. But one thing is for sure -- they intended for religion to be a matter of personal choice not public policy.

Oresta

I never could understand why religious labels for presidents is such a big deal.

I have before me the 1962 edition of The World Book Encyclopedia left behind by my now-adult daughters. There is a chart of the U.S. presidents that includes a Religion column. There are astericks by four presidents' religions: Jefferson, Unitarian [!]; Lincoln, Presbyterian; Andrew Johnson, Methodist; and Hayes, Methodist. The footnote says, "Church preference; never joined any church."

Presidents' religion was evidently of such importance to the editors that they made sure every one of the presidents not only had at least a "preference," but also were solidly mainstream Christians.

Radcliffe Emerson

In Colonial times one had to formerly be a member of a church to be a politician. This was the way it was (and may still be) in England.
So Washington, Jefferson, etc had to be formal members of churches.
That doesn't mean they believed everything their churches taught, and quotes and actions from both men contradict their churches teachings more than they agree with them.

Oresta

My point was that Jefferson never did belong to a church and he certainly didn't embrace any organized religion. He was a Deist. But Deists aren't Christian, so the editors tweaked deism into something closer to Chritianity.

Edited to add: Regardless of why politicians belonged to churches then, the religion of presidents is irrelevant to their administrations which are defined by secular law.

Radcliffe Emerson

That's true. Jefferson was Episcopal (I think) in affiliation only.
His version of the bible with everything miraculous removed is well-known, and I also agree with your comment regarding government.
I think this is always debated because Christians say this is a Christian nation. It is not, it is a secular nation, even though I think our wonderful president would make it a fundamentalist nation if he could.

And, Washington always refused to take part in communion. When he was elected, someone wrote in a newspaper he was setting a bad example. His response was to cease attending church entirely.
When he died, his doctor attested that not one word regarding a god, or Jesus or anything regarding divinity, heaven, hell, etc was uttered by Washington.

Of course, none of this has bearing on the issue of what type of government was founded, I just thought I'd throw it in.