Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pariah · 05-19-2003, 05:31 PM

i know jefferson was a deist...and i heard someone say that others were deists as well. can someone please give me some evidence or info on this? its getting really annoying hearing "the founding fathers were all christian, this is what they wanted"...

thaanks

05-19-2003, 06:59 PM

I stumbled on a "nontract" (http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html) today that addresses this to some degree.

It states: In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.
George Washington is kind of the go-to-guy for what the founding fathers were thinking, isn't he?
Then again, we made lots of treaties that were essentially lies to move those pesky Native Americans around.

And of course depending on your interpretation of the bible, you could also say that GW Bush is the second coming and the three hour finale of American Idol is the sure sign that the apocalypse is near.

SLD · 05-19-2003, 07:51 PM

It is hard to really gauge what many of the founders really believed, because in reality, a lot of them didn't say all that much about their private beliefs. Both Jefferson and Franklin expressed their views that they were deists. Madison and Washington appear to be a deists, but actually neither ever said so in so many words. Thomas Paine (technically not a founding father) was very much an avowed deist. John Adams was more than a deist, he is described as being very religious, but appears later in life to reject the idea of a trinity. I don't believe he ever said he was a deist. Patrick Henry was a fundy who indeed proclaimed that the U.S. was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ. (But since he lost on the Constitution and on a variety of other C-S issues, I would argue that his views are irrelevant, and indeed the fact that he did lose supports the position that we were not founded on any religious belief.)

I am not sure of many of the others beliefs, but I would suspect it varied quite a bit. Hamilton may have been more religious later in life, but I doubt many fundies really would want to claim him as their guiding model for a founder. His philandering ways created quite a scandal when he was Secretary of the Treasury under Washington's Administration.

John Jay I'm not sure about. He did state that we should only choose Christians for leadership positions, but I'm not aware of what his personal viewpoints were. It could have been just a political statement. It was most definitely not something we find in the Constitution.

SLD

Radcliffe Emerson · 05-20-2003, 08:01 AM

Both Adams' were Unitarians.

RawData · 05-20-2003, 05:20 PM

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...ans/intro.html

Not just presidents, but others as well. There is also a book about the religions of the presidents: "The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, from Washington to F.D.R." by Frenklin Steiner
ISBN 0-87975-975-5

Good information in both.
RD

lpetrich · 05-21-2003, 10:47 AM

Has anyone tracked down the beliefs of all those who helped compose the Constitution? And what their level of conviction was?

While doing this, one has to distinguish personal beliefs from the belief that religion is useful for making people virtuous. Because if one holds the latter view, one could advocate promoting a religion one considers false for the purpose of making people virtuous.

A view that was actually advocated by such eminent political theorists as Plato and Machiavelli.

But whatever their beliefs were, it's clear that they did not want some Church of God the American.

Muffinstuffer · 05-21-2003, 12:24 PM

I agree that the American Church of God was never intended to be created. From what I have read, the original intent (and one that will of course be debated heavily I'm sure) was to include Christianity and Christian beliefs in general in the everyday workings of the government, to protect Christianity and Christian beliefs FROM being controlled by the government, and to protect the rights of ALL of the inhabitants of the USA, among other things. As I said, I'm sure this will be debated, but I know that the ACOG was never one of the aims of the founding fat.....ARGH! I did it again.....'FRAMERS.'

Radcliffe Emerson · 05-21-2003, 12:53 PM

You're right. Washington was even quoted at some point when asked what type of workers he'd hire, that he'd hire any good worker, be they Christian, Muhammedan, or atheist.
The quote may have mentioned some others, I can't recall.

Majestyk · 05-21-2003, 01:41 PM

The Declaration of Independence, cites; "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God".

You can read that a couple of differing ways as far as their intent and personal religious beliefs. I'd like to think that, considering the education level of many of the members, including Franklin's scientific endeavors, although they would not relinquish the concept of a deity neither, would they attempt to define one.

btw, no such reference appears in the Consitution.

Toto · 05-21-2003, 03:12 PM

You should be aware that the idea that the founding fathers were all devout Christians comes from a dishonest Religious Right propagandist, David Barton, and his "Wallbuilders" site. Barton has now admitted that many of the quotes from the founding fathers that he publicized are questionable or outright false.

Read the entire story here:Consumer Alert: WallBuilders' Shoddy Workmanship by Rob Boston

Quote:

Advocates of separation of church and state were left breathless over Barton's audacity. For nearly 10 years, the Texas propagandist has traveled the country, putting on programs about America's alleged "Christian heritage" at fundamentalist churches and other venues. During these events, Barton argued that the separation of church and state is a myth foisted on the country by the Supreme Court 50 years ago. The United States, he insisted, was founded by Christians and was intended to be a fundamentalist-style "Christian nation."

What was Barton's proof for these claims? Many of the quotations he now admits are groundless! At least nine of the 12 were included in Barton's 1989 book, The Myth of Separation, and appeared in the video version, "America's Godly Heritage." Barton was so enamored of one quote supposedly uttered by Benjamin Franklin ("Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world.") that it was included on a biographical sketch WallBuilders distributes about Barton, saying it "fully sums up what David believes and teachers." Barton now admits the quote is "questionable" and recommends people don't use it.

05-19-2003, 05:31 PM	#1
pariah Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: الرياض Posts: 6,456	founding fathers religions? i know jefferson was a deist...and i heard someone say that others were deists as well. can someone please give me some evidence or info on this? its getting really annoying hearing "the founding fathers were all christian, this is what they wanted"... thaanks

05-19-2003, 06:59 PM	#2
twisted brother Guest Posts: n/a	not a christian nation I stumbled on a "nontract" (http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html) today that addresses this to some degree. It states: In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams. George Washington is kind of the go-to-guy for what the founding fathers were thinking, isn't he? Then again, we made lots of treaties that were essentially lies to move those pesky Native Americans around. And of course depending on your interpretation of the bible, you could also say that GW Bush is the second coming and the three hour finale of American Idol is the sure sign that the apocalypse is near.

05-20-2003, 05:20 PM	#5
RawData Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Puget Sound, WA, US Posts: 1,022	II library info.. http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...ans/intro.html Not just presidents, but others as well. There is also a book about the religions of the presidents: "The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, from Washington to F.D.R." by Frenklin Steiner ISBN 0-87975-975-5 Good information in both. RD

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05-19-2003, 07:51 PM	#3
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	It is hard to really gauge what many of the founders really believed, because in reality, a lot of them didn't say all that much about their private beliefs. Both Jefferson and Franklin expressed their views that they were deists. Madison and Washington appear to be a deists, but actually neither ever said so in so many words. Thomas Paine (technically not a founding father) was very much an avowed deist. John Adams was more than a deist, he is described as being very religious, but appears later in life to reject the idea of a trinity. I don't believe he ever said he was a deist. Patrick Henry was a fundy who indeed proclaimed that the U.S. was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ. (But since he lost on the Constitution and on a variety of other C-S issues, I would argue that his views are irrelevant, and indeed the fact that he did lose supports the position that we were not founded on any religious belief.) I am not sure of many of the others beliefs, but I would suspect it varied quite a bit. Hamilton may have been more religious later in life, but I doubt many fundies really would want to claim him as their guiding model for a founder. His philandering ways created quite a scandal when he was Secretary of the Treasury under Washington's Administration. John Jay I'm not sure about. He did state that we should only choose Christians for leadership positions, but I'm not aware of what his personal viewpoints were. It could have been just a political statement. It was most definitely not something we find in the Constitution. SLD

05-20-2003, 08:01 AM	#4
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Both Adams' were Unitarians.

05-21-2003, 10:47 AM	#6
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Has anyone tracked down the beliefs of all those who helped compose the Constitution? And what their level of conviction was? While doing this, one has to distinguish personal beliefs from the belief that religion is useful for making people virtuous. Because if one holds the latter view, one could advocate promoting a religion one considers false for the purpose of making people virtuous. A view that was actually advocated by such eminent political theorists as Plato and Machiavelli. But whatever their beliefs were, it's clear that they did not want some Church of God the American.

05-21-2003, 12:24 PM	#7
Muffinstuffer Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Mountain Home, AR Posts: 199	I agree that the American Church of God was never intended to be created. From what I have read, the original intent (and one that will of course be debated heavily I'm sure) was to include Christianity and Christian beliefs in general in the everyday workings of the government, to protect Christianity and Christian beliefs FROM being controlled by the government, and to protect the rights of ALL of the inhabitants of the USA, among other things. As I said, I'm sure this will be debated, but I know that the ACOG was never one of the aims of the founding fat.....ARGH! I did it again.....'FRAMERS.'

05-21-2003, 12:53 PM	#8
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	You're right. Washington was even quoted at some point when asked what type of workers he'd hire, that he'd hire any good worker, be they Christian, Muhammedan, or atheist. The quote may have mentioned some others, I can't recall.

05-21-2003, 01:41 PM	#9
Majestyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northeast Ohio Posts: 2,846	The Declaration of Independence, cites; "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God". You can read that a couple of differing ways as far as their intent and personal religious beliefs. I'd like to think that, considering the education level of many of the members, including Franklin's scientific endeavors, although they would not relinquish the concept of a deity neither, would they attempt to define one. btw, no such reference appears in the Consitution.

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