Daydreamer

The Heaven/Hell debate is so instricably linked to the god debate I thought this would fit in better here than in the Philosophy thread:

It is a common argument from theists that good cannot be found without god. We have beaten this horse to death more times than I can imagine and the various counters are not worth mentioning here.

When debunked, they usually take one step back, stating that there is nothing forcing us to be good beyond our society or our own sense of morality (as if those two weren’t enough). They belief that we need some sort of divine reward/retribution to form some sort of absolute reason for doing good. This is false, but it is not too far from the mark – I, however, see this lack of a supernatural push towards goodness or morality as not just a good thing, but a great thing.

Take a hop back in time a few decades: corporal punishment in schools was going out of fashion, as people protested it as inhumane and studies were being done showing that such punishment was a detriment to education instead of a benefit. These studies were showing that by centering education on pain avoidance, they were condemning many otherwise bright students to mediocrity because there was no push to excel - only a push to not get beaten. By contrast, they believed that if teachers instead focused on instilling a lust for knowledge in the children they would get much better results. The end result was a mix of the old-school’s fears of more delinquents, and the new-school’s dreams of seeing more over-achievers and more above average students. Not a world shattering change, but a large step to improving the education system.

Now expand that to the situation at hand - corporal punishment parallels the concept of hell, the students, ourselves. If we get rid of the ruler, if we complete this paradigm shift from a punishment-based belief system to a reward-based belief system, and replace a fear of hell with a naturalistic love for bettering mankind, I think we will see the same effects that we saw in the classroom a hundred years ago:

First, there will be a few more criminals, freed from this fear of punishment after death. This will almost certainly be minute, as we still have the safe guards created by an ever improving justice system and peoples personal, logical morality.

Second, and this is the big one, I think charity in all forms and will take a huge leap upwards. By instilling people with a love for mankind, though we will probably still get only one Mother Theresa a generation or so, we will increase the amount of charity done by the average joe, even if by small amount. Multiple this by, oh 5.5 billion after you subtract apathetics and people falling under the above category, and you’re going to get a massive improvements to the world as we know it.

Third, will current religious charities take a small dive? Maybe, maybe not. Those based on a fear of hellfire will certainly, but I think those are few and far between. However, if every religion in the world would remain, merely with all the nasty Fire-n-brimstone-n-pitchforks type bits expunged, the better half of the religion mostly responsible for such good works should remain and no drop would occur.

Footnote 1: This is all hypothetical as if the hell concept disappeared overnight. A much more viable scenario is a slow and easy transition away from religion and towards reason, and by extension this scenario, as I believe many board members favor.

Footnote 2: This logic is inductive, not deductive. I think these changes will lead to these improvements, but no one knows the minds of men, and as such this is impossible to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Footnote 3: I apologize if this sounds unduly Humanistic or preachy, but language was never my forte.

Pomp

Daydreamer,

You make some interesting suggestions. I only have one nitpick to make.

By instilling people with a love for mankind, though we will probably still get only one Mother Theresa a generation or so, we will increase the amount of charity done by the average joe, even if by small amount.

The implication here is that Mother Theresa is the sort of outstanding charity worker we would like to encourage. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm providing a few links for the benefit of our lurkers. My thanks go to turtonm, by the way, as I've shamelessy lifted these links from an older post of his.

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/august96/hakeem.html" target="_blank">http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday
/august96/hakeem.html</a>

<a href="http://www.versobooks.com/books/ghij/hitchens_mother_teresa.shtml" target="_blank">http://www
.versobooks.com/books/ghij/hitchens_mother_teresa.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.urbanlegends.com/religion/mother_teresa.html" target="_blank">http://www.urbanlegends.com/religion/mother_teresa.html</a>

Samhain

In order for any of this to be considered possible, one must raise everyone to the same level of education as many of the skeptics here. Logic and reason should be priority #1 or else even grown men will lack the maturity to act responsibly since they do not fear any kind of punishment after death. As Einstien stated before: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." The problem with this is that man today, especially in American culture is in this sad shape. Man is not educated enough to act responsibly without this fear. Education leading to reason is the only thing which can cause understanding of why one must feel compelled to do "good" over "evil" even though evil seems more profitable at times. Without free-thinking and education we would definately see a rise in crime. Think of the xtians that you know who seem dumb as dirt, they base their lives off of their faith and emotion because they don't have logic enough to base their life off of education and reason, yet they are good because the Bible tells them to be so and through God, it helps tie them with their emotions. Now take the idea of God away from that person, leave them devoid of an emotional reason to be compelled to do good and you will have major problems. Education is the only thing which will cause man to reject theism.

Daydreamer

I agree entirely, and then some. The single most important political issue for me is, and has always been, education reform, followed closely by Church-State Separation and Civil Liberties.

As I said, this is all hypothetical, and to even move towards this goal would be to move away from religion, which as has been said time and time again can only be done through reason. So all I'm really saying is that we tack on some Humanism to the ideal education we skeptics generally aim for.

Daydreamer

I'd back pedal and make up some wild story about how I meant the ideal Mother Theresa and not the real one, but that would be rather, eh, ironic considering what we critizice out opponents for. I stand correct.

Any suggestions for replacements, or should I just tidy up the paragraph to mention general over-the-top benevolent people?

Ron Singh

Do you mean when you debate theists or Xianists? I hardly think that a sikh would say that.

Daydreamer

No one is free from that sort of backpedaling, no matter where on the board someone is, save possibly solipsists. But yes, I was refering to the archtypical evangelical xian.

Jayhawker Soule

&lt; sarcasm deleted &gt;

I suspect that responsible action is motivated primarily by peer pressure supplemented, when necessary, by fear of the state. I also suspect that most Christians, like most atheist, agnostics, horticulturists, etc., are not "dumb as dirt".

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Samhain

Sorry, I had forgot that I had posted on this thread. In response to ReasonableDoubt:

Aww, how sweet of you to consider my feelings. You're really a good lad after all.

Seriously, you don't have to delete your original thoughts if you feel they're necessary, but hey, whatever you want to do.

Of course, people fear being social deviants and deviating from the "norm" of society primarily. I truly don't believe that there's anyone who truly "doesn't care what other people think" to a large extent. We are social animals, and most of us seem to have a desire to be accepted by others. And yes, when necessary, fear of the state is another block put into play. I only feel that it takes the educated man to "understand" why such laws are put into place and instead of fearing them, will accept them as beneficial.

I never said "most". I was trying to create a parallel to my point, it just seemed much easier this way. I know people who follow faith blindly, in spite of logic or reason, without even understanding their faith except what people tell them. Many theists of this type also don't seem to be far educated either. I'm sure you know people like this as well. Just trying to make a point which we could relate to.