Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Answerer · 03-22-2002, 03:39 AM

I think that all of you have forgotten to consider the Jehovah witness too.

NOGO · 03-22-2002, 06:30 AM

As far as I know the JW split the trinity. They see the Father and the Son as two distinct Gods.
Now we all know that Yahweh says very clearly that there is no other but him.
The JW, however, do call themselves Jehovah's witnesses and not Christians. If asked they will claim to be Christians as well but you must in this case see the deceptive nature of the claim.
They do not claim to be Christians because they want to be known as such. The purpose is to more effectively sell their beliefs.

03-22-2002, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:
Catholics believe that Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter in order to give him a special role. This is similar to Yahweh changing Abraham's name.
Right or wrong this is the place where Jesus appointed Peter as the head of the church.
You know - you are peter(rock) and on this rock blah blah blah...) Catholics have a COMPLETE list of popes since Peter. Just do a search for "popes" on the web to find it.
At least this is the claim. I am not really interested in arguing the point one way or another since this is of no interest to me personally.

No objection and I hold that the Church was created when Peter was called rock and conceived when the naked Peter put on his cloak of faith and dove headfirst into the celestial sea which is on the right side of the mind where the fish are big and plenty but easy to catch and will never tear the nets.

Are Catholics Christians?
This question should not even be asked. Anybody who claims to follow Christ Jesus can also claim to be Christian. When one starts to assign special criteria from his own faith can one exclude this group or that group. I have no doubt that some Catholics don't consider Protestants as Christians. So what?

Well it is a dumb thing to think that we can be followers of Christ because Jesus himself did not become fully Christ until the crucifixion and soon after that left the scene. This means that it is absurd to call yourself a Christian if you are a follower of Jesus because that would make you a Jesuit. Read carefull and see where Jesus was first called Christ and wonder why Peter was ordered to tell noone that he was the Messiah (Christ). So it is evidence of ignorance to call jourself a Christian and go to churh as a follower of Jesus who was not Christ in the Gosples. Christ was set free under the name Bar-abbas (son of the father) when Jesus was crucified. This now means that Jesus was most opposite to Christ and therefore needed to be crucified.

Catholics do not worship Mary.
Although Mary is considered something more than a saint. The obsession on this issue from both sides goes back to 4th century and is totally irrational. Catholics do pray to saints and Mary.
Since I don't believe that Jesus even existed then the status of Mary is irrelevant to me.

Rational prayer is not prayer but is like telling God that he is doing it wrong. The worship of Mary is reserved to those that have intimacy with the divinity of Mary (sic). The divinity of Mary exists only in the mind of Christian who have crowned her queen of heaven and earth in their own life. 

In my opinion it was Catholicism which elevated Jesus to the status of a God. 

No protestants did. The Jewish law convicted Jesus and in becoming the grafted branches Catholics follow the footsteps of Jesus that leads towards their own conviction. Catholics still do not see Jesus as God. Jesus Christ was and Jesus became their example to follow in effort to become Christ as follwers of Jesus.

I don't believe that any Jew of the time would have accepted Jesus as God on the basis of the miracles for example. Jews read their bible and in it was Moses who was definitely human but also performed miracles. It was always clear however that the miracles were really performed by God.
What I find stange sometimes in the Gospels is that when Jesus does a miracle nobody in the scene says that he is God. They do often say that he was the messiah. But Moses was a messiah as well. So Jews of the time were not confused on this matter like later Christians.

The Jews knew exactly who Jesus was (not God) and await the coming of Christ in their own life so they can be the messiah for the sins of their own world.

Amos, you are totally confused. First Catholics are not the only ones waiting for Jesus's second coming. Secondly, Judaism has had many Christs (ie anointed ones of God), Saul, David, and Jehu to name but a few.

Of course protestants are also waiting for the second coming but they think that he is going to come down from the sky and land someplace in Israel. After this 'funny things' are supposed to happen and they will go 'up' someplace to wherever. Catholics do not hold this to be true in the literal sense of the word but will say no more about it because that would remove the mystery of faith. Catholics, too, have and have had, many "Christs" in your sense of the word Christ.

And yes, Judiasm had and continues to have many "Christs" and that are not mentionned in the bible. It is just that the new Church was formed because too many of them got lost in the promised land and that is why Jesus died for the children of Israel and Catholics as Jews by adoption.

NOGO · 03-22-2002, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Amos
No objection and I hold that the Church was created when Peter was called rock and conceived when the naked Peter put on his cloak of faith and dove headfirst into the celestial sea which is on the right side of the mind where the fish are big and plenty but easy to catch and will never tear the nets.

What do you smoke Amos?

Quote:

Well it is a dumb thing to think that we can be followers of Christ because Jesus himself did not become fully Christ until the crucifixion and soon after that left the scene. This means that it is absurd to call yourself a Christian if you are a follower of Jesus because that would make you a Jesuit. Read carefull and see where Jesus was first called Christ and wonder why Peter was ordered to tell noone that he was the Messiah (Christ). So it is evidence of ignorance to call jourself a Christian and go to churh as a follower of Jesus who was not Christ in the Gosples. Christ was set free under the name Bar-abbas (son of the father) when Jesus was crucified. This now means that Jesus was most opposite to Christ and therefore needed to be crucified.

If you read the OT you will see that a person became the anointed one of God (christ) when he was anointed by the high priest. With this act the spirit of God descended upon him. He was thus selected by God to save his people.

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
1 Samuel 16:14 14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

Matthew 3:16 16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

Matthew 4:1 1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Notice that Jesus was led by the "Spirit" into the wilderness. This is the spirit which just came down on him from heaven. If you compare this with the story of David you see that "the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward"
and it left Saul who was the previous christ, ie anointed one of God.

So Jesus became the anointed one of God (Christ) when he was baptized by John.

Luke 9:20
And He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God."

Notice the exact wording here "The Christ of God"
Now substitute the words "anointed one" instead of "Christ" and you get "The anointed one of God". So at this point in time Jesus was already the Christ. He had been anointed already.

Quote:

Rational prayer is not prayer but is like telling God that he is doing it wrong. The worship of Mary is reserved to those that have intimacy with the divinity of Mary (sic). The divinity of Mary exists only in the mind of Christian who have crowned her queen of heaven and earth in their own life.

The title "queen of heaven" is silly but it does not make her divine. You are reading into this.

Quote:

Amos
No protestants did. The Jewish law convicted Jesus and in becoming the grafted branches Catholics follow the footsteps of Jesus that leads towards their own conviction. Catholics still do not see Jesus as God. Jesus Christ was and Jesus became their example to follow in effort to become Christ as follwers of Jesus.

You must be on something or other. You want people to believe that Catholics hold Mary as divine but not Jesus. Where do you get all this stuff.

Quote:

Amos
The Jews knew exactly who Jesus was (not God) and await the coming of Christ in their own life so they can be the messiah for the sins of their own world.

The Jews have never and are not today waiting for any divine messiah. The only messiah the Jews are waiting for is a very human messiah.
You seem to be stuck with the idea that Christ means divine messiah. That is a Christian invention.

Quote:

Amos
Catholics, too, have and have had, many "Christs" in your sense of the word Christ.

Oh! Name a few.

Quote:

And yes, Judiasm had and continues to have many "Christs" and that are not mentionned in the bible. It is just that the new Church was formed because too many of them got lost in the promised land and that is why Jesus died for the children of Israel and Catholics as Jews by adoption.

If you can make sense then I will attempt to answer you otherwise I'm afraid that I can't help.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Undercurrent · 03-22-2002, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sole Controller:
I am not one to be confused by much, however this has confused me for quite some time. I hear people talk of Xianity and catholicism as though they were as different as Islam and Hinduism. What is the underlying difference that causes people to make these discrepencies in the two.

It's simply a matter of group identity. To some protestent sects, the reformation still dominates their perception of their religion, and seeing themselves as fighters against the corrupt Vatican gives them a big theological boner.

I know some hyper-patriotic Americans who think that way about the American Revolution. Something like, "The United States was founded on freedom, therefore no other nations in the world can be free (especially not <gasp> England)."

m.

boneyard bill · 03-22-2002, 04:01 PM

Michael writes:

Quote:

It's simply a matter of group identity. To some protestent sects, the reformation still dominates their perception of their religion, and seeing themselves as fighters against the corrupt Vatican gives them a big theological boner.

I think it goes way beyond that. The Reformationists were not as literal in their beliefs as modern-day fundamentalists. Fundamentalism is actually a relatively recent development in Christianity. But I've noticed that for many of them, you're not a true Christian unless you've been "saved." And you know you've been saved if you've had the experience of being saved. So if they ask you, "Are you a Christian?" They're asking if you've had this experience. If you reply, "I was baptized in a Methodist Church," you haven't answered their question. To be Christian you have to have this experience, and you have to have interpreted this experience in a particular way. It won't do to say that you were baptized a Methodist and experienced Nirvana. In that case, you are hopelessly lost.

03-22-2002, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


If you can make sense then I will attempt to answer you otherwise I'm afraid that I can't help.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amos
No objection and I hold that the Church was created when Peter was called rock and conceived when the naked Peter put on his cloak of faith and dove headfirst into the celestial sea which is on the right side of the mind where the fish are big and plenty but easy to catch and will never tear the nets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you smoke Amos?

Do you think that people used to fish naked in those days and go swimming with their clothes on?

The message here is that faithing Peter was naked after doubting Thomas was removed because faith cannot be conceived to exist without doubt, and so here he jumped into the celestial sea which is on the other side of the boat and from there built the Church upon Divine revelation. 

snip/

Notice the exact wording here "The Christ of God"
Now substitute the words "anointed one" instead of "Christ" and you get "The anointed one of God". So at this point in time Jesus was already the Christ. He had been anointed already.

I have no problem with all of the above and it is true that the Christ identity was the second nature of the Jesus identity. This, however, was not known to the Jews who crucified the Jesus identity after it was stripped of all its belongings, except for the robe. Here Jesus was given a white robe and called "young man dressed in a white robe sitting in the tomb." This 

No protestants did. The Jewish law convicted Jesus and in becoming the grafted branches Catholics follow the footsteps of Jesus that leads towards their own conviction. Catholics still do not see Jesus as God. Jesus Christ was and Jesus became their example to follow in effort to become Christ as follwers of Jesus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must be on something or other. You want people to believe that Catholics hold Mary as divine but not Jesus. Where do you get all this stuff. 

No, the bible is clear on this. Jesus was to be crucified because he was convicted by Jewish law.
Jesus was without sin but bore the sins of his world and was therefore convicted.

The sins were redeemed at the cross and resurrection rendered Jesus worthy to occupy the Upper room but not untill he had preached for the conversion of the sins in the netherword. The lower room /upper room represent the human mind and mind of Christ dichotomy.

Mary is the personification of the mind of Christ.


quote:
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Amos
The Jews knew exactly who Jesus was (not God) and await the coming of Christ in their own life so they can be the messiah for the sins of their own world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Jews have never and are not today waiting for any divine messiah. The only messiah the Jews are waiting for is a very human messiah.
You seem to be stuck with the idea that Christ means divine messiah. That is a Christian invention.

That depends on your concept of divine. Man is Divine without the human identity. 

quote:
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Amos
Catholics, too, have and have had, many "Christs" in your sense of the word Christ.

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Oh! Name a few.

You come across them in Romatic literature all the time. Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrand, Gogol etc.

And yes, Judiasm had, and continues to have, many "Christs." (Einstein and Spinoza both had the mind of Christ).

The Catholic Church was formed because too many
"children of God" became lost in the promised land and that is why Jesus died for the children of Israel (and Catholics as Jews by adoption). His last words were "follow me" (and thus not worship me). Many have completed their faith journey but just because some are successful and complete their faith journey does not mean that they must start a new religion.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

NOGO · 03-23-2002, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Amos
Catholics, too, have and have had, many "Christs" in your sense of the word Christ.

Nogo
Oh! Name a few.

Amos
You come across them in Romatic literature all the time. Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrand, Gogol etc.

And yes, Judiasm had, and continues to have, many "Christs." (Einstein and Spinoza both had the mind of Christ).

Who, other than yourself, says that Shakespeare, Hardy, Golding, Zamjatin, Rembrand, Gogol, Einstein and Spinoza are anointed of Yahweh.

As far as I know none of these people were anointed with the mission of saving the people of Yahweh. Obviously you know something the rest of the world doesn't.

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 03-23-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Amos
No, the bible is clear on this. Jesus was to be crucified because he was convicted by Jewish law.
Jesus was without sin but bore the sins of his world and was therefore convicted.

You are saying here that Jesus was without sin but his judges knew that he was bearing the sins of the world and therefore convicted him.

But which sins of the world are you talking about?
The ones from the start of the world up to Jesus' crucifixion? Or does it include all the sins which are on-going?

The Bible answers this question in Hebrews 9.
Read on ...

KJV Hebrews 9:25-26
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This says that Jesus opted to doing the sacrifice once at the end of the world instead of every year as the high priest did it.

high priest = once a year for the year's sins
Jesus = once at the end of the world for all sins.

Early Christians believed that the end of the world was at hand. But the end of the world did not happen as Jesus predicted.

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Muad'Dib · 03-23-2002, 01:19 PM

This discussion seems more appropriate for MRD.

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03-22-2002, 03:39 AM	#11
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	I think that all of you have forgotten to consider the Jehovah witness too.

03-22-2002, 06:30 AM	#12
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	As far as I know the JW split the trinity. They see the Father and the Son as two distinct Gods. Now we all know that Yahweh says very clearly that there is no other but him. The JW, however, do call themselves Jehovah's witnesses and not Christians. If asked they will claim to be Christians as well but you must in this case see the deceptive nature of the claim. They do not claim to be Christians because they want to be known as such. The purpose is to more effectively sell their beliefs.

03-23-2002, 01:19 PM	#20
Muad'Dib Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 845	This discussion seems more appropriate for MRD.

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