Chip

As far as I can tell there are many more credentialed and accomplished scientists, Nobel prize holders included, who believe that there is something to cold fusion on the basis of their own observations than those who claim otherwise. The few links you have provided, Gauge, are part of what appears to be a minority opinion.

Concerning Stenger, appears that he is virtually a career skeptic. I find no reference to any original contributions to science by him. Without doing any experiments himself and with only reliance on second-hand data he promulgates an extreme opinion about CF, lumping it in with the possibly more easily attacked idea of ESP.

Appears that your links concerning CETI and the Patterson Cell are about the same thing. In the links I provide I attempt to offer different sets of data by different researchers. I suppose it would be impossible to find and provide counter discrediting experimentation on all that I have offered but wouldn’t it be better to cite many contradictory findings about many claims? One can always find exceptions but repeating the same ones as a reference to multiple contradictory evidence does not bode well for your “links war” attempt.

As far as the Merriman-Mallove pact, it is interesting to see some erroneous claims that Mallove made but I don’t see how this is evidence against the basic premise that CF works. It’s development does seem to face huge and powerful special interests that would rather it not become a reality <a href="http://www.konformist.com/weirdscience/koldfusion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.konformist.com/weirdscience/koldfusion.htm</a> . Perhaps the Merriam-Mallove pact can be seen more of a testimonial to the efficacy of new science suppression rather than that the new science is bogus.

I find this site that explores the reasons and methods of "pathological skepticism" to be interesting, <a href="http://www.zeal.com/category/preview.jhtml?cid=10023718" target="_blank">http://www.zeal.com/category/preview.jhtml?cid=10023718</a>

“Talk, talk, talk” Mr. Sammi? Until you and others can offer more than just that, I will remain with my observation that cold fusion appears to be a valid science. Corona688, it is just that, appears that cold fusion experiments are being done with repeated success by people who are putting their hard-earned money into it with little if any immediate monetary reward or research funding. This stuff runs smack dab into the face of the military-industrial complex. Don’t believe there is any such thing as this complex? Tell that to Karen Silkwood. Corona688, I am sharing evidence here that is absolutely contradictory to your unreferenced blurb. What is this garbage? If the evidence doesn’t match your hypothesis then just ignore it?

Regards, Chip

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Chip ]</p>

elwoodblues

It is one thing to say that 'there is something to cold fusion'. It is an entirely different proposition to say 'hey, looky here, we've got an unlimited power supply!'

Is there SOMETHING going on that is commonly referred to as 'cold fusion'? Possibly. Is this phenomenon indicative of some process not covered by theory? Could be. Is it worth looking in to? Maybe.

Just because there MIGHT be some MINIMAL undescribed force at work here doesn't mean we're looking at limitless energy. In all likelihood, it's probably some flaw or contamination of certain experiments. Or scientists on the end of their grant, looking to somehow sustain their position, and willfully or innocently interpreting data in a wildly optimistic way.

There is a minimal possibility that there's some real effect at work here. If that's true, there's a slim possibility that this effect might be usefully harnessed in energy production. But them's a lot of ifs.

Ockam's Razor, guy. Learn it, know it, love it.

elwoodblues

The Silkwood incident was really weird. But major things different in the case of cold fusion.

Not related at all to a labor dispute. No one is being 'whacked', that's for certain. In fact, everyone seems to be able to run the experiment if they really desire to do so. The details of the original (and subsequent) cold fusion experiments are well-published. Hell, with time, materials and training, you could do it yourself. No thugs beating down your door to break your fingers.

Military-industrial complex... Look, if the best example you can think of is more than a quarter-century old, you're not standing on very firm ground. The world isn't run by 5 old white men in some back room smoking cigars and drinking brandy. It's a fun image, but that's not how it works.

Chip

"Ockam's Razor, guy. Learn it, know it, love it."

Spell it. LOL, Ockham or Occam.

Appears that there were at least two other individuals since Karen silkwood that were murdered to prevent Nuclear Power industry safety compromises squelched. I'll see if I can find the references, just working from memory right now. Are you aware that there is a club of people who have been black-listed from working in the nuclear energy field because they blew the whistle on safety requirement transgressions at facilities? I'll go look for a reference for that too later.

Seems to me that some feel that if they ignore a problem or are unaware of it the problem dissapears, the "ignorance is bliss" syndrome. I'll give ya some more references to the existence of a military-industrial complex later too. As far as five guys smoking cigars, might as well turn something into the absurd if you can't address the general principle, right? I think that is more like critical stinking rather than thinking.

I got other things to attend to at the moment.

Later, Chip

Philosoft

Just curious, Chip, besides the oil industry, who else might be involved in a cold-fusion cover-up? And, aside from the oil industry, what might their motivations be to assist in the cover-up?

Corwin

At least part of it could be coming from the high-energy physics community. There's an enormous amount of money in hot fusion research... as well as a lot of professional prestige.

NialScorva

Apart from the somewhat small-minded criticism of what may be a typo, keep in mind that medieval spelling was quite flexible. There are several variations of the phonetic "Ok- am" or "Ok- ham" that are more or less valid. The current spelling of the region where William gets his name is Ockham, or latinized as Occam, thus they are prefered. It's hard to say which spelling is strictly correct, however.

Now.. back to psuedoscience theatre.

tronvillain

Ohio Infidel:
I think that is a little harsh - I suspect they sincerely believed that they had achieved cold fusion when they first made their announcement, and by the time they realized they didn't have anything they were in too deep. Besides, as far as I know, neither of them are currently involved with cold fusion.

Ohio_Infidel

I don't think that what I said was harsh at all. If they truly thought they had found something then they would have submitted it to peer review before holding a press conference to announce their findings to the world. On top of that they didn't release documentation on how to reproduce cold fusion for a long time. I don't know about you, but to me those actions just scream fake.

tronvillain

Oh, I imagine it turned into a fake pretty quickly, but I highly doubt that it was one to start with. It just doesn't make any sense for it to have begun as a deliberate hoax. Think about it - if they truly thought they had found something why bother to wait for peer review when you can be rich and famous now? Of course, you're totally screwed if it turns out to be nothing, forced to choose between admitting your stupidity or resorting to deliberate fraud. They chose fraud.