Darwin26

thank you Doc...lots of foder and insight.

slept2long

Israel's actions are terrorism under international law but you don't see it that way.

slept2long

Like run them over with a bulldozer, shoot them while they are carrying babies, break there limbs for being out at night.

And I should believe you because?

Jabu Khan

Isreal and Palestine's leaders both went way out on a limb to start peace talks. Seems to me that the Isreali's are the ones who cut their own limb off.

Darwin26

i'm just sick what the israeli's did to these simple people...
bulldozed over 8000 trees.... ripped a town and their livelyhood to shreds... how long will it take to grow these trees back ?
the permanence of the ignorant ruthless israeli's is stunning to tears ... they reap what they sew

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...eted-Town.html


This would cause me to hate them to oblivion

Loren Pechtel

Both sides are willing to talk peace. Israel won't agree to stop anti-terrorist operations during the talks, though--there have been too many failed peace talks before.

The problem is that there is a third side here--the terrorists. They won't accept the peace plan. Note the usual pattern repeats--any time it looks like peace might happen the terrorists step up their attacks.

Loren Pechtel

And Israel should simply ignore firebases??

Be glad they don't use the usual military response--counterbattery fire.\

Note this quote from the article:

Godless Dave

Very true. And often it works: they do a bunch of attacks, and Israel calls off the talks.

There is also a fourth side: those Israelis who do not want peace. Well, they want peace, but they are not willing to give back the occupied territories to get it. I think that large constituency is the reason Israel wants nothing to do with those few Palestinian activists who condemn Palestinian terrorism. And they are definitely why Israel is still expanding settlements in the territories. Until Israel starts dismantling settlements the Palestinians will not believe they are sincere about withdrawing from the territories - and correctly so.

I see at least four sides in the conflict:
1) Palestinians who want a Palestinian state in the currently occupied territories
2) Palestinians who want to destroy Israel
3) Israelis who want to withdraw from the territories IF it will result in a significant reduction in Palestinian unrest and terrorist attacks
4) Israelis who want to keep most or all of the territories as part of Israel

And those are just the four sides in Palestine/Isreal. Then there are the governments of Arabic and/or Islamic states who get a lot of political mileage out of drumming up hate for Israel and keeping Palestinian refugees in a state of destitution; the US government, which has oil interests in the region and two strong pro-Israel political constituencies at home; and Russia and other European countries who have interests of their own in the region.

I don't take any side in this conflict. The whole thing is a big mess with no easy answers.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Very true. And often it works: they do a bunch of attacks, and Israel calls off the talks.

Of course. By engaging in their wave of attacks the terrorists are demonstrating that Arafat does not have the power to offer peace. Therefore what's the point in negotiating with him? Talking peace means Israel takes more hits. Pounding on terrorists means Israel takes less hits. What would a sensible Israeli do?

[Bb]There is also a fourth side: those Israelis who do not want peace. Well, they want peace, but they are not willing to give back the occupied territories to get it.[/B]

True, but I don't think they are a sufficiently powerful force to derail it.

I think that large constituency is the reason Israel wants nothing to do with those few Palestinian activists who condemn Palestinian terrorism.

Since when has Israel been opposed to such people?

And they are definitely why Israel is still expanding settlements in the territories. Until Israel starts dismantling settlements the Palestinians will not believe they are sincere about withdrawing from the territories - and correctly so.

You're still falling into the same trap of thinking the occupied territories are the key to this. They aren't. They are an excuse. The real occupied territory is Israel itself--that's what the terrorists want.

I see at least four sides in the conflict:

I was only considering those with major power in the conflict. Of course there are minor players but they won't change the outcome.

And those are just the four sides in Palestine/Isreal. Then there are the governments of Arabic and/or Islamic states who get a lot of political mileage out of drumming up hate for Israel and keeping Palestinian refugees in a state of destitution;

Yes--the true reason peace over there is impossible as it now stands.

the US government, which has oil interests in the region and two strong pro-Israel political constituencies at home; and Russia and other European countries who have interests of their own in the region.

However, none of these prevent peace. None of these groups keeps throwing gas on the fire like the Arabs do.

I don't take any side in this conflict. The whole thing is a big mess with no easy answers.

Agreed. Anything that looks like an easy answer won't work.

Note that this applies not only to Israel but just about any long-standing problem. If there is an easy answer (other than from advancing technology) then it wouldn't be a long-standing problem!