Baidarka

In Robert Eisenman's "James the Brother of Jesus" there is mention of what he calls "the first Mary and Joseph story" . Since reading this and rereading the Josephus texts about Mariam wife of the first King Herod I have been intrigued with the idea that there could be a connection between the Mary & Joseph of the NT and the Mariam & Joseph in Josephus.
Herod killed his brother in law Joseph for a suspected affair with Mariam. He later killed Mariam and all the sons he had with her (maybe he thought that they were not his). Josephus claims that Mariam hated and feared Herod. That she wrote Cleopatra for help and then attempted to have herself smuggled to Egypt in a coffin.
All though Mariam's death took place many years too soon for her to be the mother of the NT Jesus it still seems likely that the NT writers (who seem to have used Josephus for source material) could have started out with the concept of Mariam the last Hasmonean Princess, the last beloved Queen of Israel, the mother of the last Royal Princes of Israel (all murdered by Herod), as Mary, Mother of the True King of Israel or Jesus (remember that once we strip away all the Christian mumbo jumbo the Messiah is the anointed one, the King of Royal blood)
I think that we are dealing with many layers of text that were over written as politics and theology demanded but I think that Mariam , the last of the Maccabees may be the original Mary of one of the earliest layers of the text.

ax

I think who ever wrote that book only had one hand on the typwriter- if you get my meaning.

Vorkosigan

Have you read it?

offa

offa;
Baidarka, your observation is excellent. However, Robert Eisenman is a fundie (literal). When reading Scripture you must realize that "adultery" is not about screwing, it is about "lack of faith".
In the ancient Jewish times you were not allowed to have secret conversations (adultery). King Herod set up Mariamne and Joseph. He told Joseph, and only Joseph, to kill Mariamne if Rome puts him to death. The only way Mariamne could discover the secret is if Joseph tells her (adultery). Well, she spilled the beans and the penalty for adultery (not screwing) is death.
Josephus writes in the Essene style. You believe what these bible scholars on this board write and you become fundie. Infidels should be called born-again because fundies hang out here, except, of course, yours truly!

thanks, offa

Michael Ledo

I love that book. My main problem is that I don't believe Jesus to be historical, therefore his mother can not ne historical.

Here is what I have on Mary, from "Bible Bloopers..."


Mary


“A pedestal of the earliest church bore the words ‘Hail Mary,’ the greeting of Gabriel to Mary, the mother of Jesus.”
–Josh McDowell


God did not want Jesus to be left out. He wanted his son to be just like the other savior gods (God lacks originality) so he chose a woman whose name was Mary to be the Mother of God. This way Jesus could play with all the other savior gods without having fun poked at him.

Mother Son
Mary Jesus
Maya Buddha
Maia Hermes
Maya Agni
Myrrha Adonis
Myrrha Bacchus
Maya Maria
Sommona Cadom (Siam)
Mariama (title) Krishna
Miriam (sister) Moses
Mary (consort) Jesus
Madri Buddha (Tantric Buddhism)
Maira (star of Isis) Horus
Mardoll (Freya’s epithet) Odin
Mari (consort) Yahweh
Matabrune (Hel) Oriant
Mater Matuta (Eos) The sun
Mearah(title for Cybele) Attis

Mearah(cave in Bethlehem) Birthplace of Jesus/Adonis
Medea (consort) Jason
Mary (aunt) Jesus


 
Other famous mothers include Ma-Nu in Egypt; Iranian moon goddess Mah; the Arab fate goddess Qis-Mah (kismet); the great Irish queen goddess known as Macha; the Mother of Life and Death, Macha Alla in Central Asia (1 Kings 15:13); Mab the fairy queen; and Mader-Akka who created humanity.
 
Mader-Akka is the divine midwife and goes by several names. She helped Rhea Silvia give birth to Romulus and Remus. She removed the floating twins from the Tiber river, just as Akka removed King Sargon and the Pharaoh’s daughter rescued Moses.
 
Maha-Nila-Saravati is a great Hindu water goddess essential to purification and baptism. Malinalxochitl is the Aztec Primal Mother goddess. Mamokoriyoma is the Primal Mother of the Yanomamo tribes. Manasa-Devi is the Serpent Goddess of Bengal. Mara or Marah was associated with being bitter, as the sea. To the Slavs, Mara was a destructive female force. In the Bible, Ruth chose the name Mara (Ruth 1:20) when she became an old crone.
 
All seas to the Romans were called maria or “Marys.” Mary wore blue to symbolize the ocean and was sometimes depicted as a mermaid (literally sea-virgin) and took the name Aphrodite Marina.

And in John 19:25 while Jesus was on the cross, he was attended by Mary Magdalene, his Mother Mary, and Mary’s sister who is also called Mary. Darrell and his brother Darrell.

Baidarka

Offa:
I mentioned Robert Eisenman to credit him with pointing out the coincidence of the names Mary and Joseph not to blame my brilliant or stupid theory on him. I am not sure that fundie is the correct title to ascribe to Eisenman. It may be, but the book is still filled with many thoughtful insights and a prodigious amount of information.
I think that Josephus is quite clear that Herod had Joseph killed for "screwing" and not for lack of faith or secret conversations. Josephus tells us that Herod's sister Salome told Herod that her husband Joseph and Mariam frequently had sex. He also says that when Herod found out that Joseph had revealed secret info to Mariam he became convinced that this was proof that they were having sex.
As for Josephus writing in the Essene style what does that mean and why do you say that? Josephus was writing for Greek, Roman readers and for his patron (the Emperor) . Why would he write in the Essene style?
I am completely flummoxed by your last sentence about bible scholars and born-again infidels. What are you trying to say and who is the "you" that you are referring to?

Baidarka

Michael Ledo :

I didn't assert that Jesus was a historical figure or that Mariam was really his mother.
Josephus' lurid account of the story of Mariam and Joseph seems to be of the same gossip mongering ilk as anything in the National Inquirer or The Globe. I don't know how much of what Josephus writes is reliable but I do think that the NT writers read and used his writings.
My theory is that at an early stage of the development of the Christian myth it may have been important to establish Jesus' royal pedigree. An affair between a beloved queen and a member of the royal family would have fit perfectly into the story.
Later when the virgin birth/son of God Myth took over, the royal birth story had to be excised.

I tend to think that there was a 1st century rabbi (named Yeshu or something like that) crucified by the Romans (Sabbatai Svi, Menachem Schneerson and Bar Kochbar were real people) who was considered the Moshiach (King) by his Jewish followers. Who ever the real man was, he has been buried under a mountain of mythical accretions.
Bar-Kochbar was declared the Moshiach by no less then Rabbi Akiva in the 2nd century. After his defeat by the Romans it was decided that Akiva was mistaken and a false Moshiach mythology was created to explain his defeat. Bar-Kochbar was blamed for killing a holy man and thus bringing defeat to Israel as God's punishment for his rash act.
Josephus claimed that Israel's 70 CE defeat was punishment for the murder of James (supposedly Jesus' brother) by the High Priest.
As for your list of Marys and mothers of Gods and heros, it sure deflates any semblance of originality or historical reality from the Christian myth.
Thank You for your reply and the food for thought that it contained.

Michael Ledo

Eisenman a fundie? Name sounds a bit Jewish to me. That's where I would put my money.

Toto

Offa has a private vocabulary. "Fundie" is anyone who holds any definite opinion about the Bible that he disagrees with.