hinduwoman

It is entirely possible that Dionysus is actually a variant of Shiva, the latter becoming modified over the centuries.

1. Dionysus rides on tigers. Shiva wears tiger skins.
2. God of wine. shiva is very fond of drinking and is associated with intoxicants.
3. Maenads and Bacchanal orgies: Shiva's followers behave in exactly the same way.
4. Mostly naked. So too with Shiva.
5. when Dionysus first comes to Greece, his cousin Pentehus the king is contemptuous of his barbaric habits and tries to prevent his worship. He is punished by being torn to pieces. so too when Shiva first turns up in ceremony arranged by the gods, Daksha the king, his father-in-law is scornful of his barbarity. Later Daksha is punished by having his head torn off.
6. Finally, dionysus is not orignally an Olympian god. He comes from Asia.

Jekyll

I would be interested to see reference to Dionysus' origins in Aisa. I know that there were a few Greco-Roman gods and goddesses that began their careers in the futher east- Cybele, for example. However, I'm not so certain that Shiva would have evolved into Dionysus, although there would seem to be a few parallels...

But then, there's the difference in the gods' attitude. Dionysus (Bacchus) is the god of revelry, debauchery, etc. Shiva is not. While he may be a "free spirit," a hemp user, and sexually free with his wife, he is also a mountain ascetic, the original yogi. He is also quite higher in the Orthadox Hindu panthenon than Dionysus is in the Greco-Roman god system. Often when the Greeks or Romans usurped a god from the Aisiatic countries, they enjoyed at least equal, or even an increase in status in their new home, not a demotion. Lastly, as for Shivaic ritual, that differs from tradition to tradition. I personally have not read about Bacchial like-origies in Shivaic ceremony. Are you referring to left-handed Tantric practice? (In Orthadoxy or even Upanishadic traditions, I don't see this trend.) If you are referring to Tantra (which is indeed one of the oldest traditions), I may also have to raise question. In Tantra, Shiva is ultimately connected to the Devi, or a woman. Sometimes he is even half-man and half-woman. It would be curious for the Greco-Romans to dismantle this, if they went through all the effort of moving him over from Asia.

Oh, and as for Shiva's father-in-law. He may die eventually, but the core of that story (I think) centers around the death/sucide of Sati and Shiva's mourning, not Shiva's rejection itself. Classically, I don't believe that Shiva took the rejection too personally, wheras Bacchus or Dionysus specifically responded to his rejection by punishing the kingdom.

I do think that there are some similarities, but I also believe that there are many essential differences between the two gods.

hinduwoman

Euripides says in his play that Dionysus' woship was first established in Asia and then only traveled to Greece. Collin's Encyclopaedia agrees that his worship originated in Greece.

About his difference with Shiva, there are bound to be such differences, because we do not know exactly when his worship started. The shiva we have now is a later creation. it is acknowledged that he was probably a Mohenjodran deity who got conflated with Vedic Rudra; in the process other deities also got subsumed and hosts of new legends were created until we have the present Shiva. Also myths plainly state that at first Shiva was not considered to be a high god and he slogged it out with Vishu and Brahma.

If both gods come from an orignal prototype then differences are easily explained.

Toto

The idea seems to come from <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892813741/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Gods of Love and Ecstasy : The Traditions of Shiva and Dionysus by Alain Danielou</a> (appears to be out of print). A few reviews mention that there is historical supporting evidence from the time of Alexander the Great.

Also <a href="http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christianity's_similarities_with_hinduism.htm" target="_blank">Christianity's Similarities with Hinduism</a> claims the Christians stole everything from the Hindus.

hinduwoman

Have not read the book. Will try now.

Dr. Jagan Mohan

Shiva is the perfect Yogi.. the Idol of Renunciation and Ascetism. In one of his Ascetic Forms, He is haunts cementaries, body covered with ashes and Drinks (not wine) from a Skull and wears a garland of skulls. But, is not the one to indulge in Orgies!!! nor do Shaivites!
In fact His strict Ascetism reduced the god of Love, Kamadeva (Cupid) to ashes for trying to tempt him with love.

Jekyll is right: The Similiarities are very superficial..
Like Lord Shiva wearing tiger skins and Dionysus riding a Tiger are two different things:
1. Shiva's Mount is the Nandi, the Bull. SO we can say that while Dionysus rides a Tiger, Lord Shiva rides a While Bull, the Nandi.

2. Shiva is NOT the God of Wine. Nor is He associated with Intoxicants. He is a Ascetic Householder and according to strict Shaivite Traditions, Intoxicants are prohibited for those in the Householder stage of Life.

3. Nothing to comment on Orgies: Even in Left-Handed Tantra which has Carnal aspects, the Sexuality is not a 'orgy' type. It is hightly ritualistic and you need to undergo severe ramifications before you can indulge in sex which too is not for 'enjoyment'. Bacchanal Orgy and Left Hand Tantric Sex are two poles apart in the fact that they fulfill two very different aims. Maenads were mad women of Dionysis cult of the vine and have no counterpart in Shaivite/Hindu tradition.

3. The reason for Dionysis's nakedness is because of his Drunkedness..

4. Jekyll has put it aptly

5. No comments.

Trying to draw parallels between Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology can be very unscientific and sometimes can lead to 'who borrowed from whom' disputes that are at their best useless unless they are a part of a good comparative study.

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Jagan Mohan ]</p>

hinduwoman

Shiva has dual aspects. There is a tradition of his taking intoxicants --- ganja and bhang. It is true that sexual orgy is not specifically mentioned, but Dionysus' followers also do not automatically have sexual orgies.

Tantrism is not about Shiva but Kali.

Dr. Jagan Mohan

Which Tradition? The Kashmiri Shaivism or Shaiva Siddhanta or kAshmira shaivam, vIra shaivam or vedAnta shaivam ? Pashupata?

A Quote from Shiva Mahimna and Thirumullar:

O, Giver of the Boons, the bull, the parts of a cot, chisel, the elephant-skin, Ashes, the serpent, the skull : these are the articles of your house-hold. And yet gods get all their riches merely by the movement of your eye-brows. Really, false desires for worldly things do not deceive ( mislead ) one who is always is absorbed in his soul
shiva mahimna

Love and shivam, there exist two things, say the fools.
Love is shivam, that nobody understands.
When everybody realise that Love is shivam,
they sit in love as shivam.
thirumuular

French

There are interesting books of Georges Dumezil
on bounds between hinduism and the Greek religion and other european paganism. I think this must have been translated to english (it was written originaly in French).

Basically, Dumezil try to prove that the religion of all the people speaking an indo-european language have strong similarities. In particular, they all divide the gods in three kind of gods : the gods of holiness, the gods of war and the gods
of production-reproduction (Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu). He also explains why hindus and irish
or latin stories have the same structures even if the seem strongly different at first glance.

I must say thad that I have been fascinated by his books, but I have not been convinced at all. I remain skeptic about his works. Moreover, I completly disagree with the political ideas of Georges Dumezil. However, maybe this reference can be usuful for what you are looking for.

Camille or "French"

roshan

brahma, vishnu and shiva symbolize creation, preservation, and destruction - the cycle of existence, not holyness, war and reproduction. brahma is not associated with production and reproduction, and shiva is not associated with war.

of course, all the gods are considered holy.