Kevbo

I have heard several theists recently assert that they refuse atheism because they cannot believe they have no free will a la materialism. If we focus on this assertion itself and not its validity, I assert the following as a response:

The argument of free will holds no weight if it is used to justify the belief in an omnipotent and omniscient God. If an omnipotent and omniscient God created the universe, free will is an illusion.

-An omniscient God would know exactly the course the universe would take after it was created.
-If the God in question is not omniscient, it is not omnipotent.
-Therefore, free will is an illusion under an omniscient, omnipotent God.

Now, if we question the validity of the assertion that materialism cannot produce free will and factor in the predictions of quantum mechanics, free will may have an even stronger case under materialism as opposed to under an omniscient, omnipotent God. Thoughts?

Nowhere357

I think this argument is weak. An omnipotent god can make free will if he likes, while an omniscient god can be seen as just knowing how we will use it. This defense is weak, also, but the situation always arises from using those "omni" labels, and can't be avoided. IMO it's just not a helpful way of looking at it.

Absolutely. Even without QM, the challenge IMO is for materialism to explain the existence of something we all have direct access to. Denying free will, or claiming free will is "illusion" and not real, is similar to claiming that pain doesn't exist.

Peace

yguy

And an omnipotent God could allow His creations free will to take as many detours from that course as they liked and still get the end result He wanted.

Philosoft

How would he do that, exactly?

yguy

Since we have control only over our actions, but He has control of everything else, it should be easy as pie. An earthquake here, a heart attack there...

It might go a long way towards explaining the continued existence of Israel despite being surrounded by enemies.

Kevbo

If an omniscient god has set up the dominoes and knows exactly where they will fall, do the dominoes have free will or is free will an illusion? I think that the only argument against this is to claim that the mind exists completely independently of physical processes, because all physical processes were created by an omniscient being. This is easily discredited by cutting out a section of brain, though.

Kevbo

Sounds much like what I'd call the illusion of free will.

Nowhere357

I think I understand your point. I like to use the man at a fork in the road. God knows which path he'll take, so the man really can't choose the other path, so free will is illusion. But the argument is still weak, for the same reason. The man has free will to choose, and god simply knows ahead of time. The whole argument, for both views, is just useless.

Why would this refute it? If god is omniscient, and the mind exists, then god knows everything about the mind. I don't understand the last sentence, so I guess I'm missing your point.

Peace

Philosoft

I would think, given the sheer number of free-will decisions that are made every day, it would require a preposterous amount of "rerouting" on God's part to ensure any particular outcome.

Yeah, I'm sure it has nothing to do with their state-of-the-art weapons and training, all provided by the US.

Philosoft

But isn't that the very definition of "predetermined"? If it is true at time T that the man will take the left fork, it cannot be false at time T1, when the action is taken. Thus, there is no possible world at T in which the man takes the right fork. If there was, God would not "know" which fork the man would take.