Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yahwehyadayada · 10-14-2002, 11:56 AM

I have forgotten most the religious dreck I was subjected to as a child, but one thing that has always stuck with me was the notion that "Gawd has a master plan for everyone".
What reason do xians give for praying, if there is a master plan anyway? Do they think gawd is going to change his/her/its mind?
I was raised in the Episopalian church, so I don't know if every xian denomination subscribes to the master plan belief or not, but since it's one of the few things I remember, I'm guessing that it was harped on quite a bit.

K · 10-15-2002, 07:23 AM

And how could a master plan possibly be compatible with free will?

Tom Sawyer · 10-15-2002, 07:40 AM

It's pretty simple really.

If you pray for something and it happens (or if something else happens that potentially has a minute relationship to what you prayed for) then God heard you and anwered your prayer because He loves you.

If you pray for something and it doesn't happen, then God heard you and loves you so much that He put in place another, better, plan for what should happen and it's only your failings as an imperfect mortal that prevent you from seeing it. For instance, your dying a slow, horribly painful death from cancer can help teach one of the neighbourhood kids about the importance of living every day to the fullest while we're here. Way to take it for the team!

Jamie_L · 10-15-2002, 08:43 AM

Quoth George Carlin:

Quote:

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

Jamie

Ojuice5001 · 10-15-2002, 09:00 AM

It's actually quite simple--just think of the gods' plan as being analogous to a human plan. When humans create a plan for something they rule over, or their own lives, they only plan out the big things. The small things are planned only insofar as they significantly affect the general course of events. If you were a private in the Vietnam War, you couldn't suggest a radically new strategy and hope that your superiors would listen, but you could request a three-day pass. In the same way, you cannot pray that the gods will change their minds about who should win the national elections, but you can pray that your household expenses will be low enough to afford a particular car.

Some people talk as if prayer should only be used for weighty matters, but this line of reasoning suggests that the opposite is true, and petitionary prayer is only effective if the matter is only moderately important.

Solsticin · 10-15-2002, 11:34 PM

Quote:

If you pray for something and it doesn't happen, then God heard you and loves you so much that He put in place another, better, plan for what should happen and it's only your failings as an imperfect mortal that prevent you from seeing it. For instance, your dying a slow, horribly painful death from cancer can help teach one of the neighbourhood kids about the importance of living every day to the fullest while we're here. Way to take it for the team!

I think you hit it on the head here

BTW, you owe me a new keyboard. I was drinking when I read that!

10-14-2002, 11:56 AM	#1
yahwehyadayada Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: WI Posts: 290	Prayer vs. "The Master Plan" I have forgotten most the religious dreck I was subjected to as a child, but one thing that has always stuck with me was the notion that "Gawd has a master plan for everyone". What reason do xians give for praying, if there is a master plan anyway? Do they think gawd is going to change his/her/its mind? I was raised in the Episopalian church, so I don't know if every xian denomination subscribes to the master plan belief or not, but since it's one of the few things I remember, I'm guessing that it was harped on quite a bit.

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10-15-2002, 07:23 AM	#2
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	And how could a master plan possibly be compatible with free will?

10-15-2002, 07:40 AM	#3
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	It's pretty simple really. If you pray for something and it happens (or if something else happens that potentially has a minute relationship to what you prayed for) then God heard you and anwered your prayer because He loves you. If you pray for something and it doesn't happen, then God heard you and loves you so much that He put in place another, better, plan for what should happen and it's only your failings as an imperfect mortal that prevent you from seeing it. For instance, your dying a slow, horribly painful death from cancer can help teach one of the neighbourhood kids about the importance of living every day to the fullest while we're here. Way to take it for the team!

10-15-2002, 09:00 AM	#5
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	It's actually quite simple--just think of the gods' plan as being analogous to a human plan. When humans create a plan for something they rule over, or their own lives, they only plan out the big things. The small things are planned only insofar as they significantly affect the general course of events. If you were a private in the Vietnam War, you couldn't suggest a radically new strategy and hope that your superiors would listen, but you could request a three-day pass. In the same way, you cannot pray that the gods will change their minds about who should win the national elections, but you can pray that your household expenses will be low enough to afford a particular car. Some people talk as if prayer should only be used for weighty matters, but this line of reasoning suggests that the opposite is true, and petitionary prayer is only effective if the matter is only moderately important.

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