god-free-pen

Children have the right to "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION" while they are in public school. What does it matter if the violator of that right is a 16 year old fellow student or an adult?

Childrens' minds are vulnerable and I would no more want my child to be exposed to religion than I would want him to be taught to rob banks.

Certainly individuals have the right to pray anywhere BUT ALL FORMS OF PRAYER ACTIVITY OTHER THAN INDIVIDUAL DON'T BELONG IN SCHOOL PERIOD!

Theonomous people are never satisfied with individual prayer, they forever want to impose their insanity on others. It's as if they were saying: "My goodness comes from God and yours must too" and "my distorted views of life and death are so WONDERFUL that I have a right to impose them on you and your children".

captainpabst

Right on.

Buffman

captainpabst

A dandy, realistic, post...even if rather depressing.

god-free-pen

Hear! Hear! (And "Jebbie" picks Regier for DCF Chief. At least Ashcroft had to have a Senate confirmation before ascending to his Justice Dept. pulpit.)

Alonzo Fyfe

In your role as Devil's Advocate, it seems necessary to advocate something.

There must either be a form of prayer that is fully voluntary, or it is legitimate to pressure a student into praying.

Earlier, I argued against the first possibility.

Here, you seem to be taking the second option:

The fact that X will happen to Y several times in his life does not imply that it is legitimate to do X to Y.

This student will also be lied to and deceived throughout his life. Yet, this does not imply that lying to and deceiving the student is permissible -- that it is something he should simply get used to.

Or, a black student can expect to face racism throughout his entire life. Yet, this does not justify a racist attitude on the part of the teachers in order to prepare him for what he is going to face out in the "real world."

Richard1366

And who is given the right to decide what kind of prayer? Muslim, Hindu, Krishna, Jewish, Christian... How many of our "put prayer in school" fundies would be screaming if the new school principal Muhammed Al Akbar had everyone on their knees bowing and praying to Allah?

Secular Elation

The issue basically boils down to this: is it constitutional?

These later posts in the thread have been concerned with social/psychological issues. I consider these irrelevant for the time being. I want cold, hard legal reasoning why you think school prayer is unconstitutional.

Someone above stated that it respects an establishment of religion.

But what exactly does "respecting an establishment of religion" mean in the First Amendment? Does that mean the government can't undertake any action that favors a religious establishment? Or does it mean that the government simply can't declare an established religion?

Alas, we're entering the murky waters of interpretation here. Interpreting legal and constitutional documents is always headache-inducing. You will argue how it says one thing, while the religious zealots will just argue theirs. You'll say that the founding fathers wanted government completely separate from religion, while the religious zealots will say that "this nation was founded on Christian principles - look at the Declaration of Independence" for the millionth time.

Captn Kidd

The former, in almost all interpretations. Exceptions would involve "ceremonial deism" and examples that are considered too trivial to warrant correction.

Yep. Constitution and Bill of Rights = short. Combined text of all Supreme Court decisions = very, very long.

Secular Elation

The former, in almost all interpretations

Describe how the former is the correct one.

Captn Kidd

James Madison, in explaining his veto of a bill incorporating a church (registering it officially to own property) in the District of Columbia said that it violated the first ammendment: Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment. His misquoting of the first ammendment actually illustrates the he thought of "establishment of religion" as being interchangeable with "religious establishment". And this wasn't the only time he quoted the first ammendment as "religious establishment".

The congress took a vote to override Madison's veto, and the vote fell far short of even a simple majority...showing that congress, too, agreed with Madison's interpretation.

Had the "establishment clause" simply applied to establishing a national religion, the vetoed bill would have been perfectly acceptable.

god-free-pen

I do not think it would establish a religion, because the government isn't saying, "We declare the religion of this country as Christian." So long as people of other religions are allowed to pray as well, and so long as nonbelievers have the option to abstain from such activity, I don't see the problem.

I passed out about 500 of these pamphlets at the Santa Barbara (Calif.)County Fair in 1993:

"June 17, 1993 marks the 30th anniversary of the School Prayer Decision (Murray vs: Curlett) and it is time to again look at the facts. Suggestions that the Supreme Court "banned prayer" from the public schools are untrue.

The following is a reply to an editorial which appeared in the Lompoc (Calif.) Record on 26 May 1993.

AN ATHEIST REPLIES:...........

Your editorial of 26 May 1993, "Graduation Prayer" epitomizes problems with persistent attemps to force religion on our schoool children. Can it be the tiny bit of benign neutrality granted by previous decisions of the Supreme Court impinge on religion's total control of our culture and are perceived as "antitheism"?

Equal time at school graduations for non-believers to speak only insults students with two evils instead of one. Given all the effort being made to turn our republic into a theocracy...it is wrong to teach children to disregard the constitutional rights of their classmates through misguided religious zeal.

A Supreme Court ruling of 7 June 1993 gives equal access to student initiated religious groups to use school facilities in out of class hours.

What difference does it make if the violator of separation of church and state is a 16 year old or an adult. It is still a violation of our right to freedom from religion while in a public school.

Your editorial stated: "more than 5000 requests for legal aid have poured in to the American Center for Law and Justice." I wonder how many of these "requests" came in response to the mass mailing from this religious legal group outlining how evangelical students may force "Christian testamonies" on their classmates? You also neglected to mention this group was founded by Pat Robertson. He has been quoted as saying the Constitution is a marvelous document for self government by Christian people. This demagogue also wrote: "In one of the greatest tragedies of history the Supreme Court guaranteed the moral collapse of the nation when it forbade children in the public schools to pray to the God of Jacob". This serves to strike terror in the hearts of the faithful. In their opinion (Murray vs: Curlett), 17 June 1963, the Supreme Court ruled that forced Bible reading and recitation in unison of the Lord's Prayer violated the rights of non-Christian and atheist children to be free from religion in school, Section 111, (2): "Second, the court has rejected unequivocally the contention that the Establishment Clause forbids ONLY governmental preference of one religion over another. Almost 20 years ago in Everson, supra, etc....the Court said "Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church; neither can pass laws which aid one, religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another."

Further, Justices Rutledge, Frankfurter, Jackson and Burton declared: "The First Amendment's
purpose was not to strike merely at the official establishment of a single sect, creed or religion, outlawing only a formal relation..;.the object was broader than separating church and state in this narrow sense. It was to create a complete and permanent separation of the spheres of religious activity and civil authority by comprehensively forbidding every form of public aid or support for religion."

These were our freedoms until 7 June 1993!

A child may pray anywhere he wishes, at school graduations, on the football field, anywhere. All he has to do is bow his head and pray. But what he must not do is force his prayer on others. Individual prayer is not what theonomous people want, however.....

The literature from the American Center for Law and Justice says: "God has opened up a huge missionary field. Our missionaries must be HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS. They must be a living witness for Jesus Christ."

Whenever anyone thinks he has the exact truth from God, he holds other people's rights in contempt. After all wasn't it HE that said:

"Unto me every knee shall bend, every tongue shall swear and confess to God."

"Freedom from Religion" has been taken from atheists because they didn't want to offend anyone by asking for it.

Our children must now defend their own Constitutional right to say NO to religion in schools.

Signed: God-Free-Pen

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