Secular Elation

Since most everyone here thinks that having "under God" in the pledge of allegiance is unconstitutional, would you also conclude that school prayer would be unconstitutional?

The key here, of course, is if it violates the First Amendment - that is, if it establishes a religion. I do not see how allowing the students pray during school would violate this, but then again I'm not a constitutional expert.

I do not think it would establish a religion, because the government isn't saying, "We declare the religion of this country as Christian." So long as people of other religions are allowed to pray as well, and so long as nonbelievers have the option to abstain form such activity, I don't see the problem.

I'm not trying to be nice toward the religious right in this regard; this is just my honest perception.

Alonzo Fyfe

Organized school prayer as a part of a normal school function would be unconstitutional.

However, a student praying (as long as it is done so in a way not disruptive of the other students) should be permitted.

Or a bunch of students getting together during lunch or recess to have a bible reading and discussion or prayer should also be permitted.

(And I am afraid that I would object to a prohibition on such activities if somebody were to propose one. This would be a violation of the 'free exercise thereof' part of the 1st Amendment.)

There is nothing unconstitutional about a student practicing his or her religion in a peaceful way -- even within a school. That is their right.

The problem comes up when the student -- or the school system -- organizes a ritual where other students are pressured or even required to participate.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

Secular Elation

The problem comes up when the student -- or the school system -- organizes a ritual where other students are pressured or even required to participate.

But this is a distinction that I was keen to consider: the prayer activity being optional. Even if the school sponsored it, so long as no one is compelled to participate, free of any penalty, what problem is there?

4th Generation Atheist

One of the things that continually annoys me in RL debates on this topic is the number of Xnx who don't seem to realize that individual prayer in school is permitted....they just don't want to give up that fantasy of armed guards taking kids' Bibles away b/c the Big Bad Atheists decreed it. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Secular Elation

Yes, 4th, that is irksome. But I am only evaluating organized school prayer.

Darwin's Finch

Any government sponsership of religious activities (e.g., school prayer) is unconstitutional. It doesn't matter whether students have the option of not participating. It is not the state's place to lead such activities. These are private matters and should remain such. Subtle, possibly consequence-free coercion is still coercion and violates the Establishment clause.

Conversely, as others have pointed out, the state may not in turn violate a student's free exercise rights so long as such activities aren't disruptive and don't infringe on the rights of others.

Buffman

Good overview.

<a href="http://www.ed.gov/inits/religionandschools/" target="_blank">http://www.ed.gov/inits/religionandschools/</a>

Perhaps it would be instructive to do a Google search on "Public Schools Muslim Religion." That brought up a number of other religions as well and their public school relationships.

I sense that you are struggling with a free speech issue. Perhaps you are viewing public schools as totally democratic institutions.

Krieger

Exactly...

Alonzo Fyfe

Two points:

(1) "School organized" implies "School endorsed." It means "the school has reviewed and approved of this activity for its students." By implication, those not included are at best suspect. They are "not approved" (even if this does not mean the same thing as "unapproved")

(2) Nothing is free of coercion in a school setting. The teachers are there to evaluate the students, and the students (most of them) recognize that their duty is to do that which will cause the teachers to give them a positive evaluation. In light of this, a student going along with a teacher's request can never be considered fully voluntary. (It is the same principle that is used in saying that sex between a teacher and a student cannot be permitted.)

So, by these two facts, every instance of an organized school prayer involves an element of coercion on the students to participate in a state-sanctioned religious ritual.

And, thus unconstitutional.

Captn Kidd

Also note that the 1st amendment doesn't just prohibit establishing a religion. It prohibits passing any law respecting an establishment of religion. School-sponsored prayer does respect an establishment of religion.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Captn Kidd ]</p>