Freethought & Rationalism Archive

malookiemaloo · 05-06-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
That was already demonstrated to be false.

Vinnie

m

malookiemaloo · 05-06-2003, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
I accept the creeds only on a functional basis. That is the beauty of panentheism for me. But I asked Meta a similar question not to long ago:

Vinnie: But how could God literally come to earth as man when God is alread here (panentheism). Does a literal incarnation presuppose a "God out there who come here? I take it your answer will be no but i would like some more info on this

Meta: Are we to believe that Jesus' very flesh was devine? Or is it some connection with his spirit that is deivine? I don't know, but I suspect that the latter is more like it and that explains how he could be divine while God is already "everywhere." It's not that God left the rest of reality and concentrated in Jesus, but that he had some unique connection to the divine such that his spirit and his nature and will shared in the divine origin. The Logos became flesh, was in a fleshly life as a manifestation of divine presense.

Get what you will out of that.

I believe in an "intervening" God of sorts but not the interventionist God of supernatural theism.

Vinnie

What's pantheism?

God did not so much leave Heaven and come here, He became one of His own creatures. Sublime!!

m

Mageth · 05-06-2003, 07:41 AM

God did not so much leave Heaven and come here, He became one of His own creatures.

Not really. He was still God while man, wasn't he? The old paradox of the Man-God. And he (the Man-God) is portrayed by the bible as being unique in history (though this motif is found throughout the world's mythologies and religions).

So, whatever he became, he did not simply become "one of his own creatures." To become a human, to become one of his creatures, he would have had to dispense with the god part and become truly and only man.

Sublime

And, as mentioned, a recurring theme in the world's mythologies and religions.

malookiemaloo · 05-06-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
God did not so much leave Heaven and come here, He became one of His own creatures.

Not really. He was still God while man, wasn't he? The old paradox of the Man-God. And he (the Man-God) is portrayed by the bible as being unique in history (though this motif is found throughout the world's mythologies and religions).

So, whatever he became, he did not simply become "one of his own creatures." To become a human, to become one of his creatures, he would have had to dispense with the god part and become truly and only man.

Sublime

And, as mentioned, a recurring theme in the world's mythologies and religions.

..............but He was wholly man and God at the same time. Not some sort of superman, although He did work miracles.

A true antinomy!!

m

The Naked Mage · 05-06-2003, 08:10 AM

Quote:

..............but He was wholly man and God at the same time. Not some sort of superman, although He did work miracles.

Rhea · 05-06-2003, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
..............but He was wholly man and God at the same time. Not some sort of superman, although He did work miracles.

A true antinomy!!

m

*tries to type*
*shakes head*
*blinks*
*shakes head again*

He was wholly man.
Who "could do miracles".

going by YOUR definition of his life, "yuh, right."

(what Naked Mage said.)

Mageth · 05-06-2003, 08:26 AM

..............but He was wholly man and God at the same time. Not some sort of superman, although He did work miracles.

Exactly my point - the Man-God. That's the way the Christian mythology describes the Christ.

But tell me, what other one of the Christian's God's creatures was "wholly man and God at the same time"? What other human was able to live the sinless life he is portrayed as having lived? None, right? Thus, Jesus is portrayed as unique in god's creation.

This retention of his Deity when "occupying" the human form separates what Jesus was from what we as humans are. Jesus was not truly human, for to be truly human, one cannot also be divine. A glass of water cannot be truthfully described as "a glass of water" if one adds an equal amount of oil into the glass.

malookiemaloo · 05-06-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
*tries to type*
*shakes head*
*blinks*
*shakes head again*

He was wholly man.
Who "could do miracles".

going by YOUR definition of his life, "yuh, right."

(what Naked Mage said.)

Working on a response........................

m

Mageth · 05-06-2003, 08:38 AM

I would add that the Xian mantra that "Jesus (as in God) died for our sins" rings hollow to me. God did not die on the cross, unless you think man can kill God, that God can die. The physical body, the man, suffered and died. Christ's alleged words on the cross, "Why hast thou forsaken me?", suggests that God pulled out of the process when the suffering was worst, when the end was near. God couldn't face death himself. Death remains something God has not experienced, even though he's apparently fooled Xians into thinking he has with a bit of the old bait-and-switch.

Apparently God was not "man" enough to actually die for us. He had to find a man to "volunteer".

quartodeciman · 05-06-2003, 08:48 AM

fatherphil said:

"i think balaam went with the expectation of being able to do the job that balak wanted him to do when God had made it pretty clear that this was not possible. that's what i think pissed God off about ballam's enthusiastic departure."

That takes a lot of reading between the lines. The narration there is flat, without hinting at Balaam's actual state of mind. Balaam seems to want to be obedient to God (constantly waiting for instructions).

quart

05-06-2003, 08:48 AM	#60
quartodeciman Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: US Posts: 245	hmm! fatherphil said: "i think balaam went with the expectation of being able to do the job that balak wanted him to do when God had made it pretty clear that this was not possible. that's what i think pissed God off about ballam's enthusiastic departure." That takes a lot of reading between the lines. The narration there is flat, without hinting at Balaam's actual state of mind. Balaam seems to want to be obedient to God (constantly waiting for instructions). quart

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05-06-2003, 07:41 AM	#53
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	God did not so much leave Heaven and come here, He became one of His own creatures. Not really. He was still God while man, wasn't he? The old paradox of the Man-God. And he (the Man-God) is portrayed by the bible as being unique in history (though this motif is found throughout the world's mythologies and religions). So, whatever he became, he did not simply become "one of his own creatures." To become a human, to become one of his creatures, he would have had to dispense with the god part and become truly and only man. Sublime And, as mentioned, a recurring theme in the world's mythologies and religions.

05-06-2003, 08:26 AM	#57
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	..............but He was wholly man and God at the same time. Not some sort of superman, although He did work miracles. Exactly my point - the Man-God. That's the way the Christian mythology describes the Christ. But tell me, what other one of the Christian's God's creatures was "wholly man and God at the same time"? What other human was able to live the sinless life he is portrayed as having lived? None, right? Thus, Jesus is portrayed as unique in god's creation. This retention of his Deity when "occupying" the human form separates what Jesus was from what we as humans are. Jesus was not truly human, for to be truly human, one cannot also be divine. A glass of water cannot be truthfully described as "a glass of water" if one adds an equal amount of oil into the glass.

05-06-2003, 08:38 AM	#59
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I would add that the Xian mantra that "Jesus (as in God) died for our sins" rings hollow to me. God did not die on the cross, unless you think man can kill God, that God can die. The physical body, the man, suffered and died. Christ's alleged words on the cross, "Why hast thou forsaken me?", suggests that God pulled out of the process when the suffering was worst, when the end was near. God couldn't face death himself. Death remains something God has not experienced, even though he's apparently fooled Xians into thinking he has with a bit of the old bait-and-switch. Apparently God was not "man" enough to actually die for us. He had to find a man to "volunteer".

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