Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Totalitarianist · 11-08-2002, 06:32 PM

The cause of all suffering is caused by desiring, wanting, etc.

And since suffering is not desirable or desired, the cause of suffering is bad.

And since nothing bad is desired, suffering, caused by desire and wanting, is morally incorrect.

The stronger the desire, therefore, the more incorrect it is morally.

When a desire is not or cannot be satisfied, we suffer.

The cause of this suffering (in most cases) is the desire of someone or something else. (Or, to be less vague, I mean this in two ways: the cause of suffering is the desire of other people, whether collectively or individually--the desires that conflict with our own desires; and our desire for other people and other things.)

For example, a criminal prisoner suffers because he desires to be free, and the cause of his suffering is the justified desire of the people to imprison criminals.

Since the end justifies the means, anything that is the result of something bad is necessarily bad (otherwise it would not be bad to begin with, because its result would be something good).

And since a child is the result of desire, which is the cause of suffering and therefore bad and morally incorrect, and since whatever is the result of something bad is bad, all children are bad, ie., sinful.

Edit: But we can make up for our original sinfulness by terminating our desires.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian Vir ]

Vicar Philip · 11-08-2002, 07:20 PM

Quote:

The cause of all suffering is caused by desiring, wanting, etc.

What about people suffering due to starvation? How can desiring or wanting lead to their condition?

As far as the rest of your post, Trebaxian, I'm a little confused. Are you saying your hypothesis supports the Christian belief in Original Sin, or something else?

x-xian

Totalitarianist · 11-08-2002, 07:29 PM

Quote:

What about people suffering due to starvation?

They desire food.

Quote:

As far as the rest of your post, Trebaxian, I'm a little confused. Are you saying your hypothesis supports the Christian belief in Original Sin, or something else?

It does not support the Christian belief in original sin. Their reason for original sin is quite different.

ed.ubb

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian Vir ]

Totalitarianist · 11-08-2002, 07:34 PM

About starvation. What causes starvation? It could be war, which is caused by the desire of other people. The instinctual desires of animals is also a possibility. And why they suffer, likewise, is their desire for what they do not have, whether it is an instinctual desire (want of food), or something else.

Defiant Heretic · 11-09-2002, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trebaxian Vir:
And since a child is the result of desire, which is the cause of suffering and therefore bad and morally incorrect, and since whatever is the result of something bad is bad, all children are bad, ie., sinful.

So let me get this straight. Children are bad because they were born?!

Edwin · 11-10-2002, 02:08 AM

Some desire causes suffering
Some desire causes children
Children cause suffering

I feel there's a logical fallacy here, but I can't quite put my finger on it....

AtlanticCitySlave · 11-10-2002, 11:00 AM

“The cause of all suffering is caused by desiring, wanting, etc.”

-One simple definition of suffering is pain, and I think, if we just take physical pain (as opposed to mental, although obviously many think the mental and physical are the same), we see that not all physical pain is caused by wanting and desiring. Hurricanes do not want or desire anything (nor do tsunami’s or other natural disasters), yet they cause a lot of suffering. The cause of the physical pain associated with such a disaster is not brought about by a desire or want, it is brought about by natural occurrences outside the control of human power. While the human who is hurt in such an event may want/desire not to be hurt, it is not that desire which is causing the suffering, rather it is the house ramming into their leg, getting the c-fibers firing, and making them scream in pain.
To use a human example, there are many times we do things, like drive somewhere, without wanting or desiring to do so. There are also people who take walks without really wanting or desiring to walk (or with no goal to be pursued). If the person driving the car with no desire or want to get anywhere hits the person who is walking (with no desire or want to walk), the suffering that is brought about to the person walking was not caused by desiring or wanting. Rather, it was caused by a big car ramming into them.

“And since suffering is not desirable or desired, the cause of suffering is bad.”

-I don’t see how something not being desirable or desired makes it bad. Regardless, suffering is often very desired (especially in certain religions), not to mention by many people, since it is very often through suffering we feel alive, learn to grow, mature, etc. As Tyler says in Fight Club, “how much can you know about yourself if you’ve never been in a fight?”
This also doesn’t follow. A hurricane, as a cause of suffering, isn’t desirable, but that doesn’t make it “bad”. What sense does it make to say “that hurricane over there is bad?”

“And since nothing bad is desired, suffering, caused by desire and wanting, is morally incorrect.”

-Many things that are “bad” are desired. It’s “bad” to rape a woman (at least to the majority of us), yet it’s desired by many males. It’s “bad” to eat like a glutton, yet many people do it and desire to do it.

“When a desire is not or cannot be satisfied, we suffer.”

-I desire to sleep with Christina Aguilera (yes, even over Britney), but I’m not suffering as a result of not having that desire satisfied. I desire to not run every other day, but doing so doesn’t make me suffer. I desire to be richer than Bill Gates, but again, I’m not suffering as a result of not having this desire fulfilled. And on and on and on.

“Since the end justifies the means, anything that is the result of something bad is necessarily bad (otherwise it would not be bad to begin with, because its result would be something good).”

-The end does not always justify the means, unless you’re a consequentalist of one breed or another, and adhere to such a position. It may be bad to be raped, but it doesn’t mean the result (a baby perhaps) is a necessarily bad thing. Some women love and are thankful for their baby, even though they will be the first to say their rape was bad.

“And since a child is the result of desire, which is the cause of suffering and therefore bad and morally incorrect, and since whatever is the result of something bad is bad, all children are bad, ie., sinful.”

-Aside from the several problems people may have with your inferences throughout your post (none really seem to follow), you’re overlooking a glaring point. While desiring things may bring about suffering, that doesn’t make desiring necessarily morally wrong/bad. It is through desire that we often (if not just about always) create/do good things. By desiring to help others, we can build homes (habitat for humanity), help a child in a fire (firemen), protect people (police), etc. Desire cuts both ways. Sure, if you desire something it may mean you get hurt, but it also means you may cause some good and be happy. I desire to help others when I see them get hurt. That desire helps people, it reduces suffering, both in them and me having to watch them. It doesn’t cause suffering. It stops the person (a rapist for example) from causing suffering.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]

Totalitarianist · 11-10-2002, 01:05 PM

Quote:

-One simple definition of suffering is pain, and I think, if we just take physical pain (as opposed to mental, although obviously many think the mental and physical are the same), we see that not all physical pain is caused by wanting and desiring. Hurricanes do not want or desire anything (nor do tsunami’s or other natural disasters), yet they cause a lot of suffering. The cause of the physical pain associated with such a disaster is not brought about by a desire or want, it is brought about by natural occurrences outside the control of human power. While the human who is hurt in such an event may want/desire not to be hurt, it is not that desire which is causing the suffering, rather it is the house ramming into their leg, getting the c-fibers firing, and making them scream in pain.

Good point. Perhaps this will be better: All mental pain is caused by desire; some physical pain is caused by desire.

Quote:

To use a human example, there are many times we do things, like drive somewhere, without wanting or desiring to do so. There are also people who take walks without really wanting or desiring to walk (or with no goal to be pursued). If the person driving the car with no desire or want to get anywhere hits the person who is walking (with no desire or want to walk), the suffering that is brought about to the person walking was not caused by desiring or wanting. Rather, it was caused by a big car ramming into them.

First: Tell me why a person would not desire to walk or drive a vehicle when walking or driving a vehicle. I ask this because there must be some end that he is attracted by.

Quote:

I don’t see how something not being desirable or desired makes it bad.

I consider it self evident. It is a universal truth that no man desires to suffer.

Quote:

Regardless, suffering is often very desired (especially in certain religions), not to mention by many people, since it is very often through suffering we feel alive, learn to grow, mature, etc. As Tyler says in Fight Club, “how much can you know about yourself if you’ve never been in a fight?”

Tell me exactly how they desire to suffer. Again, there must be some desirable end that makes up for the suffering (for the end always justifies the means).

Quote:

Many things that are “bad” are desired. It’s “bad” to rape a woman (at least to the majority of us), yet it’s desired by many males. It’s “bad” to eat like a glutton, yet many people do it and desire to do it.

The man rapes does not suffer, or at least does not desire to suffer. The man who desires to rape causes the person he rapes to suffer. As in all cases of suffering among men, the cause of this suffering is desire.

Quote:

I desire to sleep with Christina Aguilera (yes, even over Britney), but I’m not suffering as a result of not having that desire satisfied. I desire to not run every other day, but doing so doesn’t make me suffer. I desire to be richer than Bill Gates, but again, I’m not suffering as a result of not having this desire fulfilled. And on and on and on.

Oh, you mention such trivial examples. All intense desires, I should say, cause suffering within us if while the object of the person's desire is unfeasible to attain, or so long as it is desired.

Quote:

The end does not always justify the means, unless you’re a consequentalist of one breed or another, and adhere to such a position. It may be bad to be raped, but it doesn’t mean the result (a baby perhaps) is a necessarily bad thing. Some women love and are thankful for their baby, even though they will be the first to say their rape was bad.

Then the end did in fact justify the means.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian Vir ]

Totalitarianist · 11-10-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edwin:
Some desire causes suffering
Some desire causes children
Children cause suffering

I feel there's a logical fallacy here, but I can't quite put my finger on it....

Yes, you did a swell job of inserting it too.
Of course, I never said that children cause suffering. They do cause suffering, but that was not part of my argument.

Ms. Siv · 11-10-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trebaxian Vir:
The cause of all suffering is caused by desiring, wanting, etc.

And since suffering is not desirable or desired, the cause of suffering is bad. ]

A lot of suffering is subjective and extremely relative. To a guy who's used to 5-star luxury, 3-star luxury would be suffering. For someone who's used to a chauffer driven Mercedes, driving himself/herself might be suffering.
For someone who's used to a 5 course meal, a single course meal might be suffering .

Suffering is a function of human nature and circumstances (the environment, if you will).
You'd have to either change the environment, or change human nature.

Quote:

And since nothing bad is desired, suffering, caused by desire and wanting, is morally incorrect.

The stronger the desire, therefore, the more incorrect it is morally.

How about the strong desire to alleviate the suffering of the poor ? Or a strong desire to meet Project deadlines ?

If you're advocating stoicism, I'm with you .... but otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

- S

11-08-2002, 06:32 PM	#1
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	Original sin The cause of all suffering is caused by desiring, wanting, etc. And since suffering is not desirable or desired, the cause of suffering is bad. And since nothing bad is desired, suffering, caused by desire and wanting, is morally incorrect. The stronger the desire, therefore, the more incorrect it is morally. When a desire is not or cannot be satisfied, we suffer. The cause of this suffering (in most cases) is the desire of someone or something else. (Or, to be less vague, I mean this in two ways: the cause of suffering is the desire of other people, whether collectively or individually--the desires that conflict with our own desires; and our desire for other people and other things.) For example, a criminal prisoner suffers because he desires to be free, and the cause of his suffering is the justified desire of the people to imprison criminals. Since the end justifies the means, anything that is the result of something bad is necessarily bad (otherwise it would not be bad to begin with, because its result would be something good). And since a child is the result of desire, which is the cause of suffering and therefore bad and morally incorrect, and since whatever is the result of something bad is bad, all children are bad, ie., sinful. Edit: But we can make up for our original sinfulness by terminating our desires. [ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian Vir ]</p>

11-10-2002, 11:00 AM	#7
AtlanticCitySlave Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 251	“The cause of all suffering is caused by desiring, wanting, etc.” -One simple definition of suffering is pain, and I think, if we just take physical pain (as opposed to mental, although obviously many think the mental and physical are the same), we see that not all physical pain is caused by wanting and desiring. Hurricanes do not want or desire anything (nor do tsunami’s or other natural disasters), yet they cause a lot of suffering. The cause of the physical pain associated with such a disaster is not brought about by a desire or want, it is brought about by natural occurrences outside the control of human power. While the human who is hurt in such an event may want/desire not to be hurt, it is not that desire which is causing the suffering, rather it is the house ramming into their leg, getting the c-fibers firing, and making them scream in pain. To use a human example, there are many times we do things, like drive somewhere, without wanting or desiring to do so. There are also people who take walks without really wanting or desiring to walk (or with no goal to be pursued). If the person driving the car with no desire or want to get anywhere hits the person who is walking (with no desire or want to walk), the suffering that is brought about to the person walking was not caused by desiring or wanting. Rather, it was caused by a big car ramming into them. “And since suffering is not desirable or desired, the cause of suffering is bad.” -I don’t see how something not being desirable or desired makes it bad. Regardless, suffering is often very desired (especially in certain religions), not to mention by many people, since it is very often through suffering we feel alive, learn to grow, mature, etc. As Tyler says in Fight Club, “how much can you know about yourself if you’ve never been in a fight?” This also doesn’t follow. A hurricane, as a cause of suffering, isn’t desirable, but that doesn’t make it “bad”. What sense does it make to say “that hurricane over there is bad?” “And since nothing bad is desired, suffering, caused by desire and wanting, is morally incorrect.” -Many things that are “bad” are desired. It’s “bad” to rape a woman (at least to the majority of us), yet it’s desired by many males. It’s “bad” to eat like a glutton, yet many people do it and desire to do it. “When a desire is not or cannot be satisfied, we suffer.” -I desire to sleep with Christina Aguilera (yes, even over Britney), but I’m not suffering as a result of not having that desire satisfied. I desire to not run every other day, but doing so doesn’t make me suffer. I desire to be richer than Bill Gates, but again, I’m not suffering as a result of not having this desire fulfilled. And on and on and on. “Since the end justifies the means, anything that is the result of something bad is necessarily bad (otherwise it would not be bad to begin with, because its result would be something good).” -The end does not always justify the means, unless you’re a consequentalist of one breed or another, and adhere to such a position. It may be bad to be raped, but it doesn’t mean the result (a baby perhaps) is a necessarily bad thing. Some women love and are thankful for their baby, even though they will be the first to say their rape was bad. “And since a child is the result of desire, which is the cause of suffering and therefore bad and morally incorrect, and since whatever is the result of something bad is bad, all children are bad, ie., sinful.” -Aside from the several problems people may have with your inferences throughout your post (none really seem to follow), you’re overlooking a glaring point. While desiring things may bring about suffering, that doesn’t make desiring necessarily morally wrong/bad. It is through desire that we often (if not just about always) create/do good things. By desiring to help others, we can build homes (habitat for humanity), help a child in a fire (firemen), protect people (police), etc. Desire cuts both ways. Sure, if you desire something it may mean you get hurt, but it also means you may cause some good and be happy. I desire to help others when I see them get hurt. That desire helps people, it reduces suffering, both in them and me having to watch them. It doesn’t cause suffering. It stops the person (a rapist for example) from causing suffering. [ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ] [ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]</p>

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11-08-2002, 07:34 PM	#4
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	About starvation. What causes starvation? It could be war, which is caused by the desire of other people. The instinctual desires of animals is also a possibility. And why they suffer, likewise, is their desire for what they do not have, whether it is an instinctual desire (want of food), or something else.

11-10-2002, 02:08 AM	#6
Edwin Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: UK Posts: 77	Some desire causes suffering Some desire causes children Children cause suffering I feel there's a logical fallacy here, but I can't quite put my finger on it....

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