Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RJS · 09-12-2002, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Why would we suppose that the passengers had only thoughts of saving themselves, in view of what we know others did on that day?

Probably for the same reason everyone (self and maybe yourself excluded) has effectively agreed with this statement -

Lisa Beamer's thinking is no different than that of the hijackers.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Wyz_sub10 · 09-12-2002, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM:
 I think they knew their plane was being hijacked and that other hijacked planes had been flown into the World Trade Center towers. So they probably figured they had nothing to lose by trying to overpower the hijackers.

I think this is is the gist of it. They knew this wasn't a kidnapping (or at least were pretty sure), so instead of sitting back and waiting for death they tried to wrestle control from the hijackers.

My gut feeling was that it was a basic self-preservation move, although I'm sure some idea of sparing others passed through their minds.

Either way, it still takes courage.

christ-on-a-stick · 09-12-2002, 06:55 PM

Hey finally a chance to post at home!!! Couldn't leave this one alone til morning...

RJS sez:

Quote:

Lets try this:

Hijacker thinking - Allah wants me to kill infidels...If I die doing it, I will go directly to Heaven (...72 virgins, etc...)....So I do it.

Beamer's thinking - All humans, including myself, have committed sins, and therefore do not deserve to spent eternity with a Holy God (death)....God will forgive our sins if we repent and will offer us eternal life....She repents......

Mmmmmm... yeah.... I'm gonna have to... disagree with you on this one.... how about let's try THIS:

HIJACKER'S THINKING:

1. Allah is the One True God and Mohammed is His Prophet.
2. We are all sinners and deserving of death.
3. If one accepts Allah and the teachings of His Prophet Mohammed and the Koran, one will be redeemed and have eternal life.
4. All those who DON'T believe are still sinners and still deserving of death.
5. Further to that, life for my people over in the Middle East is pretty shitty in a lot of ways and the "Great Satan" United States is to blame for a lot of it, sez Uncle Osama! Plus he told us that since the Holy Book (Koran) promises that if I myself kill those unbelievers I will go straight to Paradise, I can't lose! I'm going to do it! Yay Allah! Virgins here I come! Die New Yorker Western Infidels!!!

BEAMER'S THINKING:

1. Yahweh/Bible-God is the One True God and Jesus Christ is His Son.
2. We are all sinners and deserving of death.
3. If one accepts Yahweh/Bible-God and the teachings of His Son, Jesus and the Bible, one will be redeemed and have eternal life.
4. All those who DON'T believe this are still sinners and still deserving of death.
5. I can't believe I lost my husband. But I have to remember that it was God's will, and he is in a better place now... he is in Paradise with his Creator because he knew the Real Truth! Bummer for all those other people that God also willed to die but that DIDN'T accept Jesus - I guess after the plane went down they went straight from the flames into ETERNAL flames. But, y'know, they deserve it. Oh well.

RJS - please explain to me how Steps 1-4 in both the hijacker's and Lisa Beamer's *THINKING* are not exactly the same? The difference comes with their actions, their willingness to take matters into their own hands and take the lives of others that they deemed deserving of death. Their views of those who don't share their beliefs are the same. Deserving of death.

I often wonder what the people who hold these types of beliefs but don't act on them would do if it *were* socially acceptable to do so. I think we saw a good example of it in historical periods such as the Salem Witch Trials. If you truly see other people as being inherently evil, it's not a far reach to having blood on your hands if your community and society not only endorses but praises you for it.

Family Man · 09-12-2002, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick:
[QB]

Actually, I feel that RJS is still making an incorrect inference.

Oh absolutely.

Quote:

I am comparing her THINKING with their THINKING, not her THINKING with their ACTIONS. Unfortunately, their thinking led them to their actions, but I am not claiming that hers has or will. However, the fact remains that both sides believe that non-believers are deserving of death. THAT is what sickens me.

Actually, if I understand her thinking correctly, she believes we all deserve death. Still pretty disgusting, but not as bad as the hijackers. I personally think that you overstated your point, though it is still a good point.

Family Man · 09-12-2002, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


I thought I would play to everyones sense of compassion first - but seem to have failed (wonder why

). I thought leading with the statement that the death she speaks of is eternal death wouldn't be well received by a bunch of people that only think we decompose upon death.

Your first play was to question C-O-A-S's compassion and patriotism. It was totally besides the point and couldn't even have been reasonally inferred from the original post.

K · 09-12-2002, 07:09 PM

christ-on-a-stick:

Summed up perfectly.

And let's not forget that there were many radical Islamic zealots who did not fly their planes into the WTC but still thought the same way. All along it has been the THINKING that has been compared not the actions.

RJS · 09-12-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

RJS - please explain to me how Steps 1-4 in both the hijacker's and Lisa Beamer's *THINKING* are not exactly the same? The difference comes with their actions, their willingness to take matters into their own hands and take the lives of others that they deemed deserving of death. Their views of those who don't share their beliefs are the same. Deserving of death.

First - lets just clarify that we are looking for "Differences in Thinking". Actually the question was, "How the fuck is her thinking ANY DIFFERENT from the hijackers???" So we are not looking for similarities. I am trying to show you the clear differences in thinking, which can and do lead to differences in results/actions. I'll try again.

Hijackers - Killing non-believers is a free ticket to Heaven and 72 virgins (regardless of their other earthly activities (sins?), so they take that and act on it. In fact, because Allah is so powerful and unapproachable, it may be their only way to get those virgins...

Beamer - Believes God is willing to forgive the sins we have committed if we repent... She believes that eternal death (not earthly death) is the wage of unrepentant sin...She believes that God will be the judge of this, and she has no role in causing the earthly or eternal death of others.

Remember, we are looking for differences in thinking.

Welcome home.

RJS · 09-12-2002, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Your first play was to question C-O-A-S's compassion and patriotism. It was totally besides the point and couldn't even have been reasonally inferred from the original post.

Actually the first play was to point out the most significant difference in their thinking....the hijackers were playing God, and Beamer isnt.

Family Man · 09-12-2002, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


Actually the first play was to point out the most significant difference in their thinking....the hijackers were playing God, and Beamer isnt.

True, but that was off the point also, and not even developed. C-O-A-S was arguing their comparative thinking, not their actions.

Then you went for the personal attack, which you really should apologize for.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]

RJS · 09-12-2002, 07:22 PM

So in the interest of progress, I will offer my view on the similarities between the thinking.

Hijackers...I believe in the true God, I want to be with Him (Her - so as not to get flamed), since the true God tells me to kill infidels to get to Heaven I will do it.

Beamer.... I believe in the true God, I want to be with Him (...) and since the true God tells me to confess my sins and repent to get to Heaven I will do it.

I find this comparison meaningless unless you discuss what they believe - which to me is part of their "thinking". Is this the breakdown? I think I would likely fit you into the above "thinking" construct.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

09-12-2002, 07:22 PM	#80
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	So in the interest of progress, I will offer my view on the similarities between the thinking. Hijackers...I believe in the true God, I want to be with Him (Her - so as not to get flamed), since the true God tells me to kill infidels to get to Heaven I will do it. Beamer.... I believe in the true God, I want to be with Him (...) and since the true God tells me to confess my sins and repent to get to Heaven I will do it. I find this comparison meaningless unless you discuss what they believe - which to me is part of their "thinking". Is this the breakdown? I think I would likely fit you into the above "thinking" construct. [ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

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09-12-2002, 07:09 PM	#76
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	christ-on-a-stick: Summed up perfectly. And let's not forget that there were many radical Islamic zealots who did not fly their planes into the WTC but still thought the same way. All along it has been the THINKING that has been compared not the actions.

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