David Mathews

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for all of your posts. I did not write this post in order to dispute any claims of persecution, as I do not doubt that atheists have at times have been persecuted.

It seems to me that at one time or another all religious (and non-religious groups) have suffered some form of insult from the culture or from other religions.

I do not support any form of persecution directed at any religious or non-religious group whatseover. I look forward to the day in which all people everywhere can live at peace with each other without distinction, preference or prejudice.

While society may not reach that ideal in the near future, and many never reach it at all, every one of us can practice it in our own daily lives. Love everyone you meet, protect everyone that you meet, treat all people kindly.

I believe that those principles are recognized as virtues by Christians and atheists alike.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Buffman

D.M.

Thanks for all of your posts. I did not write this post in order to dispute any claims of persecution, as I do not doubt that atheists have at times have been persecuted.

Though you may not have intended it as such, your initial post did seem to be offering a challenge to prove that Christians can be persecutors of minorities as well as the persecuted minority. I am pleased that you learned something new. Christians have always been persecutors of the minorities, though in some instances never even recognizing that they were. Often that comes about when they convince themselves that only their views are "Godly" and all other views "UnGodly."

It seems to me that at one time or another all religious (and non-religious groups) have suffered some form of insult from the culture or from other religions.

That is not what your opening remarks inferred. However, your above statement would seem to be elaborating the obvious to any non-theist or "unqualified" theist.

Reverend Mykeru

Buffman

Excellent suggestion, Buffman.

Way back when a man named John Howard Griffin wrote a book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451192036/qid=1025323035/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Black Like Me</a>. Rather than asking black people how they were discriminated against and badly treated in the depth south, he darkened his skin and posed as a black man to live it first hand.

Being an atheist is even easier: No cosmetics required. I would suggest that you don't tell your friends and family that you are a newly converted atheist (because some confusion would result from the disparity, and you have to live with these folks after). Rather, just go to any place where religion is discussed: A classroom, a church, a social gathering, an AA meeting, a charity event, and when the subject comes up, which it does, just tell people you are an atheist. Don't do your cheap impersonation of what you think an atheist is like. Just let the word do the work for you. Suddenly people will give you that stinky-eyed look and have their head filled with thoughts about what an immoral, hateful person you must be, no matter how you present yourself. Remember: To these people "atheist" is not a philosophical position. It is a smear word. Just like any form of bigotry, they don't care what you think or how you live. They've made that up in their own minds already.

It's easy, and it's fun. Don't ask us. Live it. See how you like it.

Then you can do the advanced lessons: Apply for a teaching position as a professed atheist. Run for political office, even if that is just a position on the local PTA. Sign up for jury duty or, even better, try to give evidence in court.

In a lot of ways it would be similar to being black in the deep south in the 1960s or Jewish in the 30s, it's just the 21st century version of the same phenomena.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend Mykeru ]

{url to Amazon edited by Toto to add internetinfidelsA account}

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Cozmoe

When the Senate votes 99-0 to condemn a court decision that supports your views, your convictions and your rights, I'd say that's persecution.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Cozmoe ]</p>

tragic_pizza

You're kidding, right?

Toto

There are states with laws prohibiting atheists from public office, but all of them would be struck down if challenged in the courts. (It took Herb Silverman about seven years to actually win his court case.)

I think the elements of discrimination felt most by atheists are social, political, and economic. You cannot be open about your atheism and expect to be elected to any significant public office, or to hold most community positions. But this is not a matter of state action.

Spazmatic

Christians are generally actually one of the worst. Certain Muslim groups are up there too, but that's about it. For example, there were bursts of persecution of Christians during the Roman imperial period, but none came remotely close to a fraction of what happened when Constantine went Christian. From thence on, pagans were persecuted with a vengeance, brutally, and completely. They even persecuted heretics horribly, wiping out almost all of the Donatists and killing a fair number of Arians.

Then, we go onto the Crusades. 'Nuff said, if you know anything about them. The only "good" Crusade was led by Frederick II, and that's because it was basically non-violent. But, just read up on what happened to Jews and so forth...

Then we have, uhm, the Holocaust... Oh, I missed the Inquisition's brutality against heretics, and the Reconquista (not to mention just a general theme throughout Europe) expelling Jews until they had nowhere left to go besides Muslim territories. Hmm...

Yeah, I just had to get that off my chest. Did I miss any important ones?

S2Focus

I just thought that I'd chime in here and say that throughout my life I have not witnessed a single event of persecution directed at blacks.

However, the fact that I'm as white as Casper the Friendly Ghost and have lived all my life in middle-class whitebread communities just *might* have something to do with that.

Fiach

[Fiach] There are many ways of persecution or discrimination that are perfectly legal over in the States. A company can "fire" an Atheist, without mentioning his/her atheism. It is easy. "He is not a team player." "She is disruptive and hostile to the feelings of co-workers." "He does not participate in company social events (the Hilton Head Prayer Retreat.)" "Her attitude is offensive and demoralising to her co-workers." An employee has great problems funding a law suit against a company with a staff of tough solicitors. The ACLU can't help in every case.

[Fiach] I suspect that Jews still suffer some in Deep South parts of the USA. Muslims are now in bigot's focus. Wiccans are about as hated as Atheists in America (about 49% of Americans in a poll I saw last year had "very negative" attitudes toward Atheists. Another 30% had some negative views of us.

[Fiach] Aye, mate, you are speaking of Utopia.

[Fiach] Spot on, Davey.

[Fiach] It should be, but reality often differs from "should be." Let me tell you one area of problem. I am a physician in the UK, with many American friens. In America there are laws however rarely enforced that protect a paid emplyee. But the exception is the small businessman and the private practicing physician. There is of course no law forcing people to go to Dr. Smedly Wetwhistle MD, who happens to be an Atheist. Especially among family practitioners and paediatricians, patients or parents whom half of which already distrust Atheists as immoral and evil, they may choose to boycott atheist doctors. It is legal, naturally. So, among my American friends, about half of those physicians are Atheists or agnostics. They all, each and everyone, admitted that they would never come out of the Atheist closet because it would ruin their successful practices and endanger their family's income. As a result they tell me, half if not most American physicians are in fact unbelievers. Yet polls only show about 10% and those in academic centers. Many told me, that espeically in small to mid-sized cities, they become church members and be sure to be seen publically entering Church services. They and their families keep their Atheism a tightly guarded secret. I assured them that I would never mention their names in this context.

The same deal applies to a small store owner, whatever he/she sells. If there is competition of any kind, that businessprson must keep his/her Atheism secret. Many businesses, I am told, especially in the South post the abstract fish symbol to say "shop here, I am Christian."

I have been to America and I have seen this first hand. Look in your Yellow Pages and not the business ads containing the fish symbol. Atheists hate to be hypocritical and fake religiosity, but the higher good is survival and their families. So many American Atheists outside of academia are "faking it." That is a sad commentary from the nation that tells the world that it is the beacon of freedom.

Air do dheagh shlàinte! (To your good health)

Fiach

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[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

GaryP

I don't know if you would call it persecution, but what about the fact that govt. always seems to take the side of mixing C&S?

Here in OH, the state spent much effort and money just in the last couple of years defending the state motto and the Cleveland voucher fiasco. They even hired Ken Starr to help with the voucher case.

And personally, I find that being an Atheist is no problem at all, unless one asks for equal consideration. My city govt. decided thay had to spend extra money on the Nativity Scene to secularize it rather than allowing an Atheist holiday greeting.