Jamie_L

What is the general Christian belief regarding how their god interacts with time.

Is he as much a prisoner of the moment as mortals? Whereby he interacts only with the universe at discreet points in time? Did he create the universe at a beginning point of time, and then watch it unfold, interacting with it as he sees fit from time to time?

Or, is he an observer outside of time? Does he see the universe as a 4-dimensional object, knowing it's beginning, middle, and end - effectively creating beginning, middle, and end at the same "time" (from his perspective)?

It seems that the first notion: God is "inside time" is the logical inference from most discussions I've heard. However, this seems to limit God in a way that doesn't seem consistent with the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient being.

The second notion: God outside of time, makes more sense, but would seem to fly in the face of much of Christian philosophy - especially "free will". If God creates our beginning, middle, and end all at once, then we aren't really making our own choices, we're just perceiving the lives God has laid out for us. This would really seem to dismantle ideas about sin, good acts, salvation, etc., etc.

Or, is this just one of those things that Chritians don't really think about?

Jamie

ManM

Jamie_L,
I have actually thought about that quite a lot, in the context of what God's divine plan might be. I'm not sure I have an answer to the question. God seems to be beyond such categorization. If we say that God is outside of time then we are rebutted by the incarnation. If we place God inside of time we confuse God and creation. All that can be said is that God is not bound by our categories.

A3

Hi Jamie,
Might this be of any help? This is our view on the matter of God and space and time. A simple analogy might be that God is in space apart from space like a referee is in a game apart from the game. But the next part tells it much better than I can.
Swedenborg writes in his Divine Providence #48-49.

“THE INFINITE IN ITSELF AND THE ETERNAL IN ITSELF IS THE SAME AS THE DIVINE.
48. This may be evident from what has been shown in many places in the treatise THE DIVINE LOVE AND WISDOM. That the Infinite in itself and the Eternal in itself is the Divine is according to the angelic idea, the angels understanding by the Infinite nothing else than the Divine Being (Esse), and by the Eternal the Divine Existing (Existere). That the Infinite in itself and the Eternal in itself is the Divine can be seen by people, and yet cannot be seen. It can be seen by those who think of the Infinite not from space and of the Eternal not from time; but it cannot be seen by those who think of the Infinite and the Eternal from space and time. Thus it can be seen by those who think on a higher, that is, more interior plane in the rational (mind); but it cannot be seen by those who think on a lower, that is, more exterior plane.
[2] Those who can see this reflect that there cannot be an infinity of space, nor similarly can there be an infinity of time, that is, an eternity from which are all things (a quo), because infinity is without end, either first or last, that is, without limits. They also reflect that neither can there be an Infinity from itself; because from itself supposes an end and a beginning, or a prior source (a quo); and therefore it is meaningless to speak of the Infinite and Eternal from itself, for that would be like speaking of Being (Esse) from itself, which is a contradiction; for the Infinite from itself would be an Infinite from an Infinite, and Being from itself would be a Being from a Being; and this Infinite and Being either would be the same as the Infinite, or would be finite. From these and similar considerations which can be seen interiorly in the rational (mind), it is clear that there is an Infinite in itself and an Eternal in itself; and that this Infinite and Eternal is the Divine from which all things are.
49. I know that many will say to themselves: How can anyone, interiorly in his rational (mind), comprehend anything apart from space and apart from time; and further comprehend not only that it is, but also that it is the All and the Self from which all things are? Think, however, interiorly whether love or any affection of love, or wisdom or any perception of wisdom, or indeed whether thought, is in space and in time, and you will find that they are not; and since the Divine is Love itself and Wisdom itself, it follows that the Divine cannot be conceived of in space and time; so neither can the Infinite. For a clearer perception of this, consider whether thought is in time and space. Suppose thought [or a dream] to go on for ten or twelve hours; may not this interval of time appear as one or two hours, or even as one or two days? The apparent duration depends on the state of the affection from which the thought has sprung. If the affection is one of joy in which one does not think of time, ten or twelve hours of thought seem no more than one or two; but the reverse is true if the affection is one of grief, when one thinks of time. From this it is clear that time is only an appearance according to the state of the affection from which thought springs. It is the same when one thinks of distance in space, either when taking a walk or when making a journey.
[9] Add to this, that to think spiritually is to think apart from time and space, while to think naturally is to think in accord with time and space; for to every idea of natural thought there adheres something from time and space; but it is not so with any spiritual idea, and for the reason that the spiritual world is not in space and time, as the natural world is, but is in the appearance of these two. In the same way do the thoughts and perceptions of the two worlds differ. For this reason you are able to think of the essence and omnipotence of God from eternity, that is, to think of God before the creation of the world, because you think of the essence of God apart from time and of His omnipotence apart from space; and thus you can comprehend such things as transcend man's natural ideas."

Regards
Adriaan

echidna

I think most theosophers are quite aware of the problems. The concept of “outside time” has been quite widely considered both as a scientific and religious necessity, but with such an impossible notion to grasp, there are few hard conclusions.

To my understanding, “outside time” does not necessitate strict determinism. Even temporally, free will is confusing enough, both with and without omnipotent beings.

Tercel

Jamie_L,
I have always argued the second idea, and it seems to me to be by far the more sound theology (as well as being more defensible).

That's exactly what I'd say.

Agreed. How about: "Time is inside God"?

Good point. However, consider the idea that the actual events in the space-time universe were finalised after our creation and are dependent upon our already created essence. If we existed in essence prior to the instantiation of a possible universe, then our free will could be taken into consideration in creation. ie God could reduce the range of potential universes to only those that had us acting freely, ie as we would do so. And of course in that range there would only be one universe that had God acting as he would do so in response to our free actions.

It's fun speculating anyway...
I thought quite a lot about it when I first started to seriously consider Christianity. It made my head hurt. I finally decided that it seemed perfectly possible (if a little confusing) and that I definitely wasn't in a position to say that it wasn't possible.