Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magazine · 02-11-2003, 10:14 AM

I know atheists don't believe that Abraham and Peter, the founders of Judaism and Christianity, were worshipping a real God. (In Abraham's case, some don't think he even existed.) But what about the question of whether they are morally admirable? I think of them as being courageous, in that they defied a hostile environment to set up something they believed in.

Do you think that, ignoring the question of whether they were theologically right, Abraham and Peter were the kind of person that someone should look up to?

MortalWombat · 02-11-2003, 10:29 AM

In the case of Abraham, no. He abandoned his first son and was willing to sacrifice his second one.

CX · 02-11-2003, 09:23 PM

We have very little in the wau of information about Peter. I would however be interested to read how you consider hims to be the founder of Xianity. I would consider either Jesus or Paul as founder. Lastly if we take the Peter depicted in the NT I wouldn't say there is a lot to admire. He was somewhat ignorant of Jesus mission and program, is depicted as somewhat of a coward who denied Jesus 3 times and, according to Paul was a bit two-faced with the gentiles until James hammered him. What exactly is there to admire about Peter?

Vinnie · 02-11-2003, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX
We have very little in the wau of information about Peter. I would however be interested to read how you consider hims to be the founder of Xianity. I would consider either Jesus or Paul as founder. Lastly if we take the Peter depicted in the NT I wouldn't say there is a lot to admire. He was somewhat ignorant of Jesus mission and program, is depicted as somewhat of a coward who denied Jesus 3 times and, according to Paul was a bit two-faced with the gentiles until James hammered him. What exactly is there to admire about Peter?

Since when isintelligence a major factor of being morally admirable? When threatened with the possibility of death he fibbed, and we know that at one point he caved in to peer pressure. Even if all of this is historical, so what? These negative examples hardly demonstrate that Peter was a "bad person" not to be admired. Like so many figures in antiquity, we simply do not know anything even close to the the "real" Peter.

Vinnie · 02-11-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX
We have very little in the wau of information about Peter. I would however be interested to read how you consider hims to be the founder of Xianity. I would consider either Jesus or Paul as founder. Lastly if we take the Peter depicted in the NT I wouldn't say there is a lot to admire. He was somewhat ignorant of Jesus mission and program, is depicted as somewhat of a coward who denied Jesus 3 times and, according to Paul was a bit two-faced with the gentiles until James hammered him. What exactly is there to admire about Peter?

I also think it was Paul who hammered him ("opposed him to his face").

Vorkosigan · 02-12-2003, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
Since when isintelligence a major factor of being morally admirable?

I believe the criticism was that he was ignorant of Jesus' mission and program.

Magazine, what is the purpose of this thread? Is there some link between Abrahamn and Peter you want us to tease out?

Vorkosigan

JEST2ASK · 02-12-2003, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magazine
I know atheists don't believe that Abraham and Peter, the founders of Judaism and Christianity, were worshipping a real God. (In Abraham's case, some don't think he even existed.) But what about the question of whether they are morally admirable? I think of them as being courageous, in that they defied a hostile environment to set up something they believed in.

Do you think that, ignoring the question of whether they were theologically right, Abraham and Peter were the kind of person that someone should look up to?

Short Answer NO.

Neither IMO were exceptional in demonstrated morality ... I agree both showed some courage in follwing their God. However both showed significant character flaws and limited concern for the whole of humanity. Abe as pointed out under pressure from his wife banished the mother of his first born son (who if you read between the lines was a forced surrogate ... Note IMO). Also according to the limited view we get in the bible he lied on two occasions about his martial status... (while this seems trivial I wonder just how far he (really) went with the deception). His nephew Job was willingly to offers his virgin daughters to a sex crazed mob.

Peter in many passages is protrayed as impulsive, arrogant, hypocritical and cowardly (not just in denying Jesus passages)

In fact this faith / devotion to God often overshadowed what I consider moral (Human based) considerations.

However both men (biblical characters) were fully human with good and bad points and I consider them worthy of neither undue admiration or scorn.

I am awaiting your point ... of where the question is leading.

JEST2ASK · 02-12-2003, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
.....Even if all of this is historical, so what? These negative examples hardly demonstrate that Peter was a "bad person" not to be admired. Like so many figures in antiquity, we simply do not know anything even close to the the "real" Peter.

I agree the Bible really does not offer much to allow separtion of the people (characters) from the overriding theological intent. I always feel unsatisfied and want more information.

Maybe it is just my nature where every answer just points to more questions.

Magazine · 02-12-2003, 07:37 AM

My point? Well, I was just thinking in terms of the fact that Christianity sees an opposition between the untamed world in general, and the people that God has selected. And the best examples of this are the first Jew and the most important of the first Christians. So I thought a good question to ask would be, How do atheists see Abraham and Peter?

Vinnie · 02-12-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magazine
My point? Well, I was just thinking in terms of the fact that Christianity sees an opposition between the untamed world in general, and the people that God has selected. And the best examples of this are the first Jew and the most important of the first Christians. So I thought a good question to ask would be, How do atheists see Abraham and Peter?

The better question to start off with is what do we know about Abraham and Peter?

It would probably be better to discuss Paul in that regard seeings how we actually have writngs from him. Or better yet, start with a discussion of Marcus Aurelius and his innermost musing in The Meditation. Then move to someone like Paul.

Quote:

I believe the criticism was that he was ignorant of Jesus' mission and program.

If so, does that make him morally repulsive? Stupid maybe, but that wouldn't mean he wasn't a nice guy that we all should admire

Mark, at the least, overdoes the "intelligence level" of Jesus' closest followers for anyways.

Vinnie

02-11-2003, 10:14 AM	#1
Magazine Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 40	Abraham and Peter I know atheists don't believe that Abraham and Peter, the founders of Judaism and Christianity, were worshipping a real God. (In Abraham's case, some don't think he even existed.) But what about the question of whether they are morally admirable? I think of them as being courageous, in that they defied a hostile environment to set up something they believed in. Do you think that, ignoring the question of whether they were theologically right, Abraham and Peter were the kind of person that someone should look up to?

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02-11-2003, 10:29 AM	#2
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	In the case of Abraham, no. He abandoned his first son and was willing to sacrifice his second one.

02-11-2003, 09:23 PM	#3
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	We have very little in the wau of information about Peter. I would however be interested to read how you consider hims to be the founder of Xianity. I would consider either Jesus or Paul as founder. Lastly if we take the Peter depicted in the NT I wouldn't say there is a lot to admire. He was somewhat ignorant of Jesus mission and program, is depicted as somewhat of a coward who denied Jesus 3 times and, according to Paul was a bit two-faced with the gentiles until James hammered him. What exactly is there to admire about Peter?

02-12-2003, 07:37 AM	#9
Magazine Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 40	My point? Well, I was just thinking in terms of the fact that Christianity sees an opposition between the untamed world in general, and the people that God has selected. And the best examples of this are the first Jew and the most important of the first Christians. So I thought a good question to ask would be, How do atheists see Abraham and Peter?

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