Darth Dane

Yes, all of our worlds are based on belief...have faith(belief) as a mustard seed?


Lets make it real life like Jobar.

There are observers on both sides, and on both sides we have both confirmations and denials to the reality of the horse.


A group may see God, (on the same side) but some see Jesus as God and others don't.



Depending on what we "see" we are attracted to certain groups of people and repulsed by others, and even in a group we like we may find people who still repulse us.

Those we like we group up with, those we don't like is the enemy.

Modern people is facing a millions pulls and pushes troughout the day: Whom do we like, who is the enemy, do I like icecream etc etc etc.








DD - Love & Laughter

wordsmyth

If you put 10 people in a room with a chair and ask them what they see, they will all tell you they see a chair.

If you put 10 people in an empty room, they will all tell you they see nothing.... and if they say they see god(s), I would lock them in the room.

joedad

Firstly, Welcome to the discussions, phil.

The Kogi experience always struck me as somewhat unique in terms of teaching theism.Exiting a cave after nine years of sensory deprivation would be shocking to say the least. It must be quite convincing to have been told years of stories about trees, wind, waterfalls, green and snow-capped mountains, storms, a myriad of animals, oceans, etc. and then actually see and sense all these things for the first time.

I'm addicted to the outdoors myself and have spent countless John Muirish hours pelted by wind and hail, blistered and baked by the sun, crossing whitewater streams, ascending and decending trails, through the fog, the moonlight, the cold, the desert... Shit, phil, I'm getting carried away...

But if I were taught about a tree I can find a tree. If I were taught about the sun I can see and feel the sun. But through all this I would still not be able to sense and see Aluna. I'm left with stories about Aluna but no Aluna, even though as a Kogi Mama (love that phrase) I was taught that all was made so by Aluna.

If I were blind from birth, how would you go about teaching me about the sun? It isn't something that I can sense directly by touch or taste. Yes, you can take me out into an open field on a hot bright sunny day and tell me to tilt my head and face in a certain direction, and I can feel the heat emanating from a thermonuclear furnace 93 million miles away, and I could certainly feel that heat. But would that be enough, and at what age? How are you going to explain lightning and a host of other phenomena to someone blind? What about the moon?

In short, along with our personal experiences, we're all presented with stories about things and then take it from there. If someone tells me stories about trees and Aluna, I am then free to examine the claims made in both stories.

phil

History cannot be repeated, does that mean it does not exist? Am I wrong in believing that there was a president named Lincoln who was assassinated in Ford Theater?

I realize some things do need to be repeated in order for belief in them to be valid, but one cannot claim that is the only way for a person to put belief in something.

If a person believes in God, they should be able to give historical evidence (that can't be repeated) and/or 'present' evidence that is either repeatable and/or verifiable by others.

When someone conducts an experiment it is a personal experience for them. People can either believe the person's claim or test it for themselves. If they test it for themselves it becomes a personal experience for them. Are people wrong for believing in gravity because they have a personal experience of it? Am I wrong for believing in the photoelectric effect because I haven't tested it?

Exactly. Why believe in a story if it doesn't live up to its claims?

-phil
BTW Thanks for welcoming me to the discussions joedad, I enjoy talking with people here.

joedad

I would beg to differ, phil. You're being quite anthropomorphic. Even if one confines one's observations to the comings and goings of humans, an ever so tiny bit of the history of the universe, depending on how you want to define any word, "history" most certainly repeats itself. Along those lines I recommend Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel.

wordsmyth

Everyone on Earth experiences gravity. Not everyone on Earth experiences god(s). There are numerous experiments for gravity that anyone who doubts its existence can perform and these experiments are duplicateable by anyone. If you know of any experiments to validate the existence of god(s), I would be more than happy to give them a try.

It is irrelevant that each person may experience gravity in a slightly different and/or personal way, it still exists for everyone and therefore it exists objectively.

The difference is, you could duplicate experiments involving the photoelectric effect to validate it. There are no experiments to validate the existence of god(s).

Amaranth

That's already giving up too much - The photoelectric effect has a huge leg up on god, as god lacks even a consistant definition.

Shadowy Man

I have tested the photoelectric effect. In fact, none of my thesis work would have been possible without the photoelectric effect.

And yes, there are experiments that lay people could set up, if you were so inclined, to test the photoelectric effect and see for yourself.

Quantum Ninja

I'll take your proof and one up ya'.

You cannot prove that you exist.

Therefore, your argument does not exist either.

ComestibleVenom

If you can't draw a square circle, then how can you tell me that the easter bunny doesn't exist? Hu? Analyze that you atheists!